Episode 1: The Murder of Georgann Hawkins
In an attempt to prove he had valuable information into unsolved homicides, Ted Bundy confesses in vivid detail to the kidnapping and murder of a University of Washington sorority girl.
+ Read the episode transcript
Bundy: “Okay, Let me give it a moments reflection here. ”
Halsne narration: IN HIS FINAL HOURS ON EARTH, SERIAL KILLER TED BUNDY DECIDED IT WAS TIME TO DROP THE FAÇADE OF INNOCENCE.
Bundy: (Chair slide) “I just wrote that the Hawkins girl’s head was severed and taken up the road about 25-50 yards and buried in a location about 10 yards west of the road on a rocky hillside.”
Halsne: LEADING EXPERTS IN THE CRIMINAL MIND THOUGHT THEY KNEW EVERYTHING THERE WAS TO KNOW ABOUT BUNDY..
Dr. Muscatel: THIS GUY IS A REAL SICK FUCK, OKAY. This guy is bad.
Halsne: BUT A SET OF RAW, UNEDITED CONFESSIONAL RECORDINGS, KEPT AWAY FROM THE PUBLIC BY THE FBI UNTIL NOW, SHINE NEW LIGHT ON HIS DARK SOUL.
Bundy: “You’d have probably found damage to the head – the jaw in particular probably broken.”
NARRATION: I’m investigative reporter Chris Halsne and this is INTERVIEW WITH EVIL: TED BUNDY’S FBI CONFESSIONS
elevator door opens and ding
Halsne narration: IT’S A RARE PRIVILEGE TO VISIT SEATTLE CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGIST DR. KENNETH MUSCATEL’S OFFICE – AND NOT BE DIRECTLY INVOLVED IN SOME KIND OF HORRENDOUS MURDER.
(At door meeting Dr.) Hi how you doing! Hi. I’m Chris. This is Michelle. (Nice to meet you!)
Halsne: DR. MUSCATEL’S SPECIALTY IS ANALYZING THE MENTAL STATE OF KILLERS. HE DOES IT FOR BOTH PROSECUTORS AND DEFENSE ATTORNEYS ALIKE.
Dr. Muscatel: “I got my PhD from University of Washington in 1979. Which was when dinosaurs actually ruled the Earth. And I’ve done well over 700 homicide cases in my career at this point. I’ve done a lot of cases with children. Done just over 60 homicide cases with children who are the alleged perpetrators from 16 all the way down to 11. By any definition, when you’re 16 or 13, your brain is not even remotely developed.”
Halsne: I FIRST MET HIM ABOUT TWENTY YEARS AGO WHEN I WAS WORKING AS AN INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER IN SEATTLE.
Nats “KIRO-7 Eyewitness News at 5”
NARRATION: WE SHARED A FASCINATION WITH THE ARREST OF GREEN RIVER KILLER, GARY RIDGEWAY
Halsne: WE SHARED A FASCINATION WITH THE ARREST OF GREEN RIVER KILLER GARY RIDGEWAY.
KIRO anchor Steve Raible: _Investigative reporter Chris Halsne joins us live along the SeaTac strip.” _
Halsne audio live shot “Prostitutes who worked this area say Gary Leon Ridgeway was a frequent and weird customer.”
Green River Killer confession to police: “_I always thought I was doing you guys a favor killing prostitutes – you can’t control them, but I can.” _
Dr Ken: “What did Gary Ridgeway say? One of the things he said why did he do it? He said because he was good at it.”
Halsne: WITH HIS DARK RIMMED EYEGLASSES AND TRIMMED, GRAY GOATEE THE 60-ISH MIND-DOCTOR LOOKS LIKE FAMED PSYCHOLOGIST SIGMUND FREUD ONLY DR. MUSCATEL HAS A FULL HEAD OF HAIR.
Bundy: “Let’s do it this way. Here’s the grassy area.”
Halsne: WE ARE HERE TO SPEAK WITH HIM ABOUT A SERIES OF AUDIO RECORDING- ADMISSIONS MADE WITH SERIAL KILLER TED BUNDY ONLY A FEW DAYS BEFORE HIS EXECUTION.
NAT BREAK NATS BUNDY “What’s the Attorney General willing to do?”
Halsne: DR. MUSCATEL, AS IT TURNS OUT, KNEW TED BUNDY LONG BEFORE BUNDY WAS EVER SUSPECTED OF ANYTHING.
Dr Ken: “I would see, literally, ‘T. Bundy’, Yah. He worked as a counselor/therapist at Harborview Mental Health Center. Yes. I knew. I had a colleague who know him. She – he invited her over to dinner. (volunteer therapist in the mental health area)”
Halsne: DR. MUSCATEL NEVER HAD A CHANCE TO DIAGNOSE BUNDY IN PERSON, BUT AS HE LISTENED TO THE 4 ½ HOUR’S WORTH OF DEATH ROW AUDIO RECORDINGS IT DIDN’T TAKE HIM LONG TO ZERO IN ON BUNDY’S MOTIVES.
Dr Ken: _“He’s been doing a sales job, and this is his closer. Close the sale. Close the sale. He’s at the end of his options. So, what does he got to negotiate with? What he did. They know what he did, but he’s got information – not only about victims (which are going to run out sooner or later, right?) Once your run out of unsolved cases, then you’re done. I got something inside of me that I can articulate that you guys need to understand that you guys can save people by not putting me to death. What do you gain versus what do you lose?” _
Halsne narration: AS THE CREATOR OF THIS PODCAST, I MADE DECISIONS AS TO HOW BEST TO SHARE THESE RECORDINGS AND PROIVDE LISTENERS THE BEST INSIGHT POSSIBLE INTO HOW BUNDY’S MIND WORKED. I’’M GOING TO LET HIM SPEAK, UNEDITED, FOR LONGER AMOUNTS OF TIME THAN YOUR TYPCIAL SOUNDBITES. I WANT YOU TO HERE THE NUANCE IN HIS WORDs – HIS MANIPULATIVE PAUSES AND STORY TELLING ABILITIES.
Bundy: “We either convince the right people, it’s not or never – to do a proper job for everybody, I’m going to need some time.”
Halsne: HERE’S THE SCENE JANUARY 20, 1989, FL ORIDA STATE PRISON IN RAIFORD. IT’S FRIDAY. BUNDY IS SET TO BE EXECUTED BY ELECTRIC CHAIR ON MONDAY NIGHT OR TUESDAY MORNING.
HE’D BEEN SENTENCED TO DEATH IN THREE SEPARATE TRIALS – FOR A SERIES OF MURDERS AND RAPES IN FLORIDA. HE’D BEEN OFFERED PLEA DEALS IN RETURN FOR HIS ADMISSION OF GUILTY – BUT HE REFUSED. PROCLAIMING INNOCENCE OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
NOW, IN THIS MOMENT -- FINALLY – HE SAYS HE IS READY TO ADMIT TO HIS HORRIBLE CRIMES. IN RETURN THOUGH – FLORIDA’S GOVERNOR, BOB MARTINIEZ, WAS GOING TO HAVE TO DELAY THE EXECUTION. AFTERALL – HOW COULD HE EXPECT TO GET THROUGH ALL THE DETAILS OF 30 OR 40 KILLINGS IN ONE WEEKEND?
Bundy: “Those people want to know what I done. They should be interested wx I have a chance to tell it. I’m not talking about clemency. I’m not talking about weekend furloughs. Ha ha. Nothing unusual except to give us a reasonable period of time for law enforcement to have a systematic, deliberate attempt to know everything I have to tell them. And make use of it. Both specifically in solving cases. Finding remains. And in the more general aspects that Bill’s unit works with. Overall understanding, prevention, detection- that kind of stuff. Off the top obviously it’s the individual cases. I mean, that you, and other law enforcement are most interested in.”
Halsne: THE BILL HE’S REFERRING TO IS WILLIAM HAIGMEIER. HE’S ONE OF THE FBI’S ORIGINAL CRIMINAL PROFILERS. HIS COLLEGEUES DESCRIBE HIM AS SMART – MORE OF A COLLEGE PROFESSOR THAN A HARDENED STREET COP. HE BARELY SAYS A WORD FOR DAYS WHILE SITTING LISTENING TO BUNDY.
Bundy: “I’m just rambling on here. Break in anytime. Because I know that, I’m sure that, over the years you have developed some insight, to say the least, and maybe even some animosity you’d like to get off your chest. Ha. But we need to talk very frankly here.”
Narration: BUNDY HAS A PARADE OF DETECTIVES FROM AROUND THE COUNTRY WAITING TO SPEAK WITH HIM.
Bundy: “We just can’t get everybody in here in the next two three days. You know better than I what a good interrogation consists of.”
Narration: THERE ARE UNSOLVED HOMICIDE CASES IN COLORADO, IDAHO, UTAH, MONTANA, CALIFORNIA, OREGON – BUT ON THIS DAY REPS FROM THOSE STATES WERE GOING TO HAVE TO WAIT.
Bundy: “Yeah. Yes. There are. I hear you Bob!”
HALSNE narration: BUNDY PRIORITIZES VISITING WITH WASHINGTON STATE DETECTIVE BOB KOEPPEL. THIS WASN’T RANDOM. BUNDY WAS COMFORTABLE WITH KOEPPEL BECAUSE THE TWO HAD BEEN SECRETLY CHATTING FOR YEARS WHILE BUNDY WAITED ON DEATH ROW. MORE ON THAT LATER.
Bundy: “Because basically, it all began in Washington State. That’s where I was living and grew up as a young man. Those kinds of images, impulses and behaviors took place there.”
Halsne: THE SERIAL KILLER SAID HE TRUSTED KOEPPEL TO SHARE HIS DETAILED MEMORIES OF HIS KIDNAPPING AND MURDER OF ONE OF HIS FIRST VICTIMS – 18-YEAR-OLD UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON STUDENT GEOGANN HAWKINS.
Bundy: “Let me start with one. Let me start this way. The unidentified remains. This is where the presence of the officers is a little bit unnerving. Names? I don’t want police to get any kind of names at this point. Okay. I will just write the name down for you. All right?” K? Did you see that? The name that I just wrote down is Georgann Hawkins.”
Dr Ken: “He’s enjoying the process. He’s not.. there is no distress. There’s no fear. There’s no anxiety evident. Listen to the voice. Where is it? This is where he feels in control. It’s how he’s dealt with things. When he’s doing this – feels like he’s playing people like a violin – he feels in control.”
Bundy: “Okay. Let me give it a moment’s reflection here. I’ll talk real low.”
Dr Ken: “ I want to give you one thing to keep in mind. A thousand and one Arabian Nights. Shirazada, who extended her life be telling stories.”
Nat snd –One Thousand and One Nights
Dr. Ken: “She was this concubine. She’s going to tell this great story. Probably sexual. And so she got another night an d another night and another night. So, just think about that.”
Halsne narration: SO BUNDY STARTED HIS STORY – RICH IN DETAIL AND DRAMA – ABOUT ONE OF HIS FIRST KILLS. THERE WERE NO REPORTERS WERE IN THE ROOM. ONLY THE FBI AGENT, THE KING COUNTY DETECTIVE, A CORRECTIONAL GUARD, AND BUNDY’S YOUNG ATTORNEY DIANA WEINER.
KEPPLE HIT “PLAY” AND MONITORED THE NARROWING WIDTH OF TAPE LEFT ON EACH SIDE OF A CASSETTE, SO HE COULD PAUSE THE CONVERSATION AND FLIP IT OVER WHEN THE TIME CAME.
Bundy: “It was a Thursday I believe. I don’t know. 11 or 12 o’clock on a warm Seattle May night. Clear. Wx been good. I was, about midnight that day, in a alleyway behind, may have my streets wrong here, behind – the sorority, fraternity house, I’d have been. 46th, 47th. In there. In back of the, well, in back across the alley was the Congregational Church I believe. And some parking lots behind the fraternity and sorority houses.”
Dr. Ken: “_On a dark and stormy night. This is completely… and it probably is true, but remember he might not remember it at the time. A lot of it may be reconstruction in his mind. What was the weather like? He’s piecing it together. Some of this could be confabulation. He probably remembers the key elements to it, but again, he is – I refer you to Shaharazod, he is telling an enticing story – a good enough story – he will buy another day.” _
Bundy: “Basically when I reached the car, I knocked he unconscious with the crowbar. (Where’d you have that?) Outside. In back of the car. (Did she see it?) No. No. Then there was (whispering) some handcuffs there, along with the crowbar. The crowbar. And I handcuffed her and put her in the driver’s I mean passengers side of the car and drove away. (Was she alive or dead?) Oh no. She was alive. Unconscious but was very much alive. (What happened next?) Big sigh. Well. Wait. Hold it (pause). Drove down the alley to 50th I believe, NW 50ths. North and West. Turned left. Went to the freeway. 5 is it? Then turned off the floating bridge – the old one. 90. She was conscious at this time – had regained consciousness at this time. (pause) Well there’s a lot of incidental things – not talking about them but across the bridge, East. Passed Issaquah and to the grassy area.”
Halsne: SEATTLE’S GEOGRAPHY ISN’T THAT HARD TO ENVISION EVEN IF YOU’VE NEVER LOOKED AT A MAP. TO THE WEST THERE IS WATER PUGET SOUND WHICH CONNECTS TO THE PACIFIC OCEAN, THEN GOING EAST THERE IS A TINY STRIP OF LAND WHERE THE MAIN CITY SITS – THEN A HUGE LAKE, LAKE WASHINGTON WHERE THE UNIVERITY OF WASHINGTON HAS ITS CAMPUS – THEN SUBURBS WHICH END IN THE CASCADE MOUNTAINS.
BUNDY’S GRASSY AREA – ONE OF HIS BODY-DUMP SITES IS A GOOD 20 MINUTE DRIVE FROM THE UW’S SORORITY ROW.
Koeppel: (How did you get across I=90. Driving east on I-90 there’s a barricade?.)
Bundy: “No then. At that time, you could make a double left turn. As illegal as it would have been because of a double yellow line, that was crazy. If there had been a State Patrolman there, he probably would have arrestee me. Never-the-less there was no divider at that time – all you had to do is make an illegal left turn across the lanes of I-90 and right into the side road that ran parallel to 90.”
Keppel: What happened next?
Bundy: “Parked. Took her out of the van and took the handcuffs off her. (Took her out of the what?) The car. (Driving what?) The Volkswagen. (You said van?) It wasn’t. It was a VW. I took handcuffs off. An uh. Gee this is probably the hardest part. I don’t know. (tape pauses- click) We were talking rather abstractly before but now we’re getting right down to it and I will talk about it but I hope you understand it’s not something that I find easy to talk about and – after all this time.”
Dr Ken: “Notice he didn’t talk anything about the ride there. She’s awake at this time. What’s she doing. Is she screaming? Yes. Probably. Is she crying? Yes. Probably. He doesn’t describe any of that. He doesn’t describe her suffering. He’s describing, well it’s difficult for me to talk about it. Who give shit – pardon my French. It difficult for you to talk about? He’s not talking about HER suffering. Okay?”
Bundy: “One of the things that makes it difficult. Among others is that at this point she was quite lucid talking about things. About some. Ha. It’s funny. Not funny, but it’s odd the kinds of things people will say under those circumstances. And she though that she had a Spanish test the next day and she thought I had taken her to help tutor me for the Spanish test. Odd thing. Odd thing to say. Anyway. (hesitation and pause and sigh). The long and short of it, I’m doing to get there, try to make this in degrees, the long and short of it is that I again knocked her unconscious and drug her into, about ten yards into the small grove of tree there.”
Koeppel: What did you strangle her with?
Bundy: “Cord. An old piece of rope. (Something you brought there with you?) Yeah. It was in the car. (Then what happened?) I packed the car up. By this time, it was almost dawn. Just about dawn the sun was coming up. Tossing clothes – horror – break out of a fever – out throwing articles of clothing.”
Halsne narration: NOW THIS NEXT PART IS A LITTLE HARD TO HEAR, BUT DETECTIVE KEOPPEL’S QUESTION IS IMPORTANT. HE CHALLENGES BUNDY BY POINTING OUT A MASSIVE HOLE IN THE STORY JUST TOLD – BUNDY NEVER MENTIONED REMOVING GEOGANN HAWKINS’ CLOTHS.
Koeppel: When did you remove those? (What?) The shoes, clothing.
Bundy: “Well. After we got out of the car, initially. I skipped over some stuff there and we’ll have to get back to it sometime, but I don’t feel, it’s, it’s just too hard for me to talk about right now.”
Dr. Ken: So, stop for a second. What time did he grab her? Six hours? So, he had her for hours and hours and hours. Okay. He says I knocked her out. She was out, then I strangled her while she was unconscious. What happened in those hours?
He either tormented her psychologically, physically or both for HOURS. It wasn’t a quick – he didn’t knock her out, she dropped, was dead, he strangled her, then he took her straight out and disposed of the body. He in fact, took her out while she was still alive. Took her all the way remote then had her there for 2, 3, 4 hours then finally killed her and disposed of the body. That’s an important element in understand what he was about.
Halsne narration: “WHAT HE WAS ALL ABOUT” THAT’S WHY THE FBI HAS BEEN USING THESE BUNDY RECORDINGS IN ITS TRAINING IN ITS BEHAVIORAL ANALYSIS UNIT.
Bundy: “the Hawkins girl’s head was severed and taken up the road about 25-50 yards and buried in a location about 10 yards west of the road on a rocky hillside.I give you that because, I felt it might be worthwhile to start there because, one, that hadn’t been discovered before. (Right) That was more or less a question mark to a point. We know what the suspicions were, but among other things the family may be able to. I don’t think you even have those separate and unidentified remains, but it a good place to start.”
Halsne: BY THE WAY, former detective BOB KEOPPEL HAS SPOKEN AT LENGTH OVER THE YEARS ABOUT HIS BUNDY ENCOUNTERS INCLUDING WITH ME. A GOOD FRIEND OF HIS – ANOTHER LONGTIME HOMICIDE DETECTIVE -- TELLS ME Keppel’S HEALTH HAS BEEN DETERIORATING – AND HE’S LIKELY DONE HIS LAST INTERVIEW ON THIS SUBJECT.
Keppel: So do you remember what clothes she was wearing?
Bundy: “Yep. A pair of white, patent leather clogs, blue slacks. Some kind of halter top of which she had a shirt tied in a knot. (Okay. And where were these deposited?) Along the roadside. Not right along 90. I went East to the infamous Taylor Mountain Road. Again. At at some point, south of Taylor Mtn a lot of that stuff went out of the car, down embankments. It was pretty light, I just tossed it out. Sometimes I did it, Somethings not. I was so panicked I had to get every reminder of that out of the car.”
Halsne narration: DR. MUSCATEL ISN’T BUYING BUNDY’S “HORROR OR PANIC.” REMEMBER, HE’S LISTENED TO THE CONFESSIONS AND REASONINGS OF HUNDREDS OF MURDERERS – WHO HAVE SLAUGHTERED MORE THAN A THOUSAND PEOPLE. BASED ON THAT VAST EXPERIENCE, DR. MUSCATEL BELIEVES THE EMOTION BUNDY WAS LIKELY FEELING – BUT NOT ADMITTING TO – WAS THE “HIGH” OF PLAYING GOD.
Dr. Ken: “If nothing else, he is not overwhelmed by emotion. He’s feels completely in control. The urge – the satisfying desire for control and the desire to kill may be the – desire to have total control and the ultimate control will be to take this person’s life dispose of the body and get away with it and do it again. That control.”
Halsne narration: BUNDY CONTROLLED THAT PRISON INTERVIEW ROOM TOO. HE GAVE UP ONE BIG SECRET, CONFIRMING HIS KIDNAPPING AND MURDER OF GEORGANN HAWKINS, BUT HE MADE IT CLEAR - - THAT WAS ONLY A TASTE – A BARGAINING CHIP – HIS WAY TO “PROVE” HE WAS SERIOUS ABOUT HELPING POLICE SOLVE ALL HIS CRIMES,
Keppel ASKED IF HE COULD GET SOME OF FEELING AS TO HOW MANY WOMEN AND GIRLS BUNDY HAD KILLED IN WASHINGTON STATE ALONE. – THE ANSWER WAS TANTAMOUNT TO PLAYGROUND TAUNTING.
Bundy: How many? I think it would be 11.
Halsne: The interrogation went on for hours that first day, Bundy never stopping his sales pitch about how keeping him alive would aid in a deeper understanding of how his mind worked –which would be of benefit to society for all of time.
Bundy: Bill, I could cooberate something on virtually every one of them without a doubt. I’ve done bad things, more importantly why.
Halsne question: Is there something to learn – he’s talking about how important he is for the FBI and behaviorists to study him. He believes that. Is in fact that true? Is there is a lot to learn from these recordings about the next potential Ted Bundy?
Dr Ken: Yes. Is it worthwhile listening to this stuff? Yes. There is no substitute for talking to a person and their interaction.
I’m investigative reporter Chris Halsne. Coming up in the next segment of Interview with Evil – Ted Bundy’s FBI confessions -- we hear from one of the world’s leading experts on serial killers. Dr. Sasha Reid.
Dr. Reid: “We know about the crimes, but we’ve never heard Ted talk about the crimes and take ownership – he gets close but talks in third person. If they hear him say in his own words what he did, I wonder if their perception would change. We see this person some say is a monster, but we don’t know what he did.”
Halsne narration: HER TAKE ON THESE RARE RECORDINGS – WHERE BUNDY RANKS WITHIN HER DATABASE OF NEARLY SIX-THOUSAND SERIAL KILLERS – AND WHY THERE IS ONLY ONE COMMON CHARACTERISTIC COMMON AMONG ALL OF THEM.
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