Episode 4: Bundy RAW Special
In this bonus episode of Interview with Evil: Ted Bundy’s FBI Confessions, listen to the first hour of an unredacted audio file where Bundy describes his kidnapping and murder of a University of Washington freshman. In his own words, exactly how he remembers the crime 15 years later. He never told anyone this story until a few days before his execution.
+ Read the episode transcript
TB: What would I like to know?
RK: Well, I don't know what you'd like to know. . Are you aware this is being taped?
TB: Yes. I'm aware.
RK: Do you have any objection?
TB: No. No, I don't have any objection.
RK: Why don't you put it on "stop".
Ok, the date is 1/20 of '89. Right?/
·-::GUARD: I got a message for you. Remind me to give it to you when you leave. It' telephone call they want you to make after you leave here.
RK: How do you expect us to proeed?
GUARD: Attorney General's Office, Idaho.!
TB: Ok, how do I expect us to proceed? Well, this is what I
hope we can, together, work on.RK: `Ok. `!r
TB: You know. I think what I need to do is tell you what's going on form in terms of this p actical day-to-day stuff. mean, hour-to-hour stuff, the pressures I'm under, limitations you might say. You can understand that, that, I'm sure and appreciate, that this phase two death watch, it obviously puts us under some kind of constraints. But I think We can, we can get started.
RK: Ok.TB: `What we need to, what `I `need to do is just, like `I `say, how to proceed.· And I -- first thing I have on my list is to talk about the importance of, at this, at this stage, of, that we have an agreement of confidentiality.`
RK: Umm `ha.`TB: That I certaintly won't make any statementi about this meeting, that Dianna won't, that none of us do until, you know,
:certainly we, we're much further down the road. Too much has been said already, you khow.
RK: I agree.
TB: That.'s killing us.
RK: Now, what kind of confidentiality, length of time are we talking about? Are you talking about to othar local law enforcement agencies?
TB: Well, we're talking about our meeting here today, ummm, let's say through Monday --RK: `Ummm.`TB: And that we have an understanding that any, any statements you make to the public, that any of us make to the public we will, umm, we will advise the other, the other party that' we're going to make any kind of statements.
RK: Sure. No problem with that.TB: · Ok.RK: My policy to this point was I wasn't making any statements.
TB: Nothing whatsoever. And you certainly have my word on it. And as you know I have not spoken to the press and do not, well, I'm not saying I don't intend to, but I'm not going to talk about this meeting. I don't know if I'm going to say anything or what I'm going to say. It probably depends a lot on what things look.1 `ike Monday.`
RK: Ok.TB: But I certainly would not disclose anything that you, that
we had an understanding specifically that I was not to disclose.
RK: Ok.
TB: Well, I'll go with what I have. I mean, I'm the chronic note-taker. Well, I'm looking for us to find a way that we can reach the point where I can start to talk about some things. Ok.RK: `Umm ha.`TB: Ok, my, my feeling is, and I want the reaction, your reaction and Bill's reaction to this, but it'.s my feeling, and it's, I think it's not unrealistic to sriy that I simply don't have enough time to tell you,· or anybody else all that I, that I
know and need to tell you, in the next two or three days, which is basically what we're looking at. I mean, I might as well give you right up front, you know, how I see this in terms of my participation. I mean, I'm,. I'm at the point where, you know, you might say, 1 1 m at the point, finally, where I see that I'm going to have to tell you and others everything that I know with regard to so-called unsolved cases, Ok. Nowj you can look at it, look at it pessimistically or skeptically or whatever but the fact is I'm at that point and it's an uncomfortable position. I may have obviously waited too long, but I'm here and we're here. So we've got to work with what we've got.RK: `Ugh ha.`TB: On the other hand, my position is for it to be of benefit truly a benefit to you and law enforcement and social scientists, I've got to tell you the whole truth· and nothing more and nothing less. Certainly nothing less. And Bill knows, Bill's familiar, you're familiar with the FBI studies on serial murder how important it is to get the antecedent behaviors and all that background stuff and put it all together in the context of hardcore data. And I think it 1 s, what I 1 m after is a total understanding here. Now, I realize people are very skeptical of me and perhaps skeptical of my intentions. And they have good reason to be, I guess. It's; you know, you can look at me as a hypocrite at this point that I've waited so long, but the fact is better late than never. We're at the point where something can be done. And I und,erstand aiso that I'm at a position where I can't call the shots and will, but I think the main stumbling block here is a lot of people, certainly maybe the most important person under these·circumstances is Martinez, is not, does not believe I'm sincere. And, and perhaps one thing that might get things moving is to, I believe, is for me to give you, or to give some law enforcement officer a hardcore, tangible, unimpeachable revelation. ·RK: Ahh `ha.`TB: Ok. Which I've never done before -- ok, to a law enforcement officer or to anyone else for that matter. I mean, I'm the only one in possession of this information and that's just the way it is. So, I think that demonstration alone would be evidence of my sincerity because it's a big step, and we'll talk about why if you want, why it's a big step·for me, and then that goes .in to why I've waited so long to talk about it. I mean, among other things you can imagine it's not eaiy to talk about. I had selfish motivations, legal motivations, family motivations, any number of things, but the fact of the matter is, umm; I think
obviously it's now or never. Well, we either, we either convince the right people it's now or never and that we, to do a proper job for everybody, we're, I'm going to need some time. And I'm not saying you have to do it, but those people want to know about what I've done, I think should be interested, whether or not I have a chance to tell it. And I'm not talking about clemency.
I'm not talking about weekend furloughs, you know, I'm not talking about anything unuiual except to give us a rea onable period of time for law enforcement to have a systematic and deliberate attempt to know everything I, that I have to tell them. And make use of it. Both in specifically solving cases, finding remains, and in the more general aspects of the kinds of things that Bills unit works with, I mean, in the overall understanding to prevention, .detection, that kind of stuff. But off the top, obviousiy, it's individual cases. I mean, that you, I'm sure, and other law enforcement people, are most interested in. Ok, I'm just rambling on here. Just break in any time because I know that, I'm sure that you, ·over the years, you have developed some sort of feelings of insite, to say the least, and some, maybe even some animosity you'd like to get off your chest. But, we need to talk very frankly here. ·
RK: I think the most frank thing that I can tell you is that I'm here to listen.TB: `Ok.`RK: I have no idea -- I've got some ideas about scope, and frankly, only represent the state of Washington.TB: `I know.`RK: Ok. What all these other people do or say I can't have any control over them. I have the support of all the law enforcement agencies in our state and I have the information. I look more as a facilitator to you. Once before we talked in generalities about how this would come about. --TB: Ammm `ha.`RK: In that I could provide some of the details back about things that may not be so prominent in your mind and you could probably fill in the other blanks that I don't have. But, I need to have an idea of scope in the state of Washington, time frame -
- is it better to start backward or forward -- what is the best avenue to pursue. The most active things are probably what people are going to listen to, things that you have longed to have forgotten about are probably not going to be too much
listening about. But, most of the people that were involved in those cases, frankly, are either dead themselves, retired, or crazy and they're not around anymore, really, to, you know, support what I'm doing or object to it. And so what all the feelings you may have heard or were communicated to you, it's mostly recent. All the law enforcemeht agencies that are expressing what they're expressing, there maybe anywhere from ten to twenty years old at.the time those things were going on. And so, they're more or less reariting back to what they remember about at the time and there's not', very many people that have been around fully active in the profession that long that really have a geninue stake. So you're really at an advantage, I think,. t):rnt they want to know what you've got to say. And in a frank and candid manner, they are definitely no bull shit. And they say if I say that Ted is being honest with me and up front, or has been, or whatever it might be, they are going to believe me. They also are the kind that, you know, if they don't believe it's true then they will probably wish that you were dead as much as anybody else. · ·
TB: Ya, and they might wish that way anyway,. but I think that the -- ya. I hear you. I'm following you there. I do know that, for instance, Mike Fisher is scheduled to come in tomorrow and he's, he's been around waiting in the wings, if you will.
RK: Not from the state of Washington.
TB: Urnm? Oh, ya, excuse me, I know. Ok. All right. I don1 t want to get, I don't want to drag you into other things, but --
RK: I need to know that when you talk about it, in briefing too that you're not going to exclude anybody on down the road because you talked to Keppel.
TB: Well, exclude who? In Washington state?
RK: Anywhere.
TB: Oh, no. No, no. But we can't just get any -- everybody •in here in the next two or three days.
RK: I agree.`TB: And so, you know, better than I, what a good and reliable interrogation consists of. And I think one time you told me you didn't want, when we ever had a chance to talk you didn't want it to end up like Henry Lucas. And believe me, it won't. But, which means that you will, you want to do `a `better job than `theTexas State Rangers did. And so, I think that means -- to me, what that means, and this is what I guess what counts -- is to me that means that we go over things in great detail but not just the incideni itself. Ultimately, whether it's to you or to somebody else, because basically it a l began in Washington State, that is, that's where I was living, that's where I grew up as a kid --
RK: Right.
TB: And that's where I'grew up as a young man and those kinds of imagies, impulses and behaviors which ultimately led to the violent behavior, you know, occurred, if you will, in Washington State, the kind of broad understanding that I'm looking for is going to come; you know, during those years I lived in Washington state. You know, unfortunately, I guess from your standpoint, it was Washington, basically Washington state where those first crimes, incidences, murders took place.
RK: Ahh.ha.
TB: But, you know, yes. I want -- I won't exclude anybody, but more importantly I want to make a graphic demonstration here, in some way, to show my seriousness to you. You can convey it to others in Washington or whoever might ask you confidentially what you think. We haven't had a lot of contact in the past. We wrote some and we met a couple of times and we talked generally. I never gave you -- • but I don't think I ever promised you that I'd do something that I haven't done.
RK: Never.weTB: Now, I 1 m not trying to come off the honorable kind of guy, but I mean, this is where are. I mean, agh, I've got to be able to convince you and others of my sincerity and my resolve.
RK: Well, I'm the one too that can followup the details, information, whatever you have and make sure that these bodies are found or somebody searches or whateve the case might be, corroboration of what you have to say. And probably whatever, every little word that you say will be followed up on.
TB: Ahh ha.
RK: So, that's my guarantee to you that hearing what you have to say and going home and say, ya, he did it, ain't good enough. We've got to see if we can find evidence, if we can find bodies, if we can find information that corroborates everything you said,
and we might even have to do a little bit of that in the next two and three days.
TB: Well, I hear you. I hear you. Yes. Well, no, well, I mean, well, you're talking about, I think what you're saying, Bob, is that -- I hear you. You need information from me that, as they say in the papers, that only the police and perpetrator may have known.. Is that what you're saying?RK: `Ya. rt doesn't do `me `any good to not have the information of only what you know`TB: Oh, ya. I 7- Well, ya.
RK: And I'm not so sure how much is left, frankly. You could probable enlighten me.
TB: Well, it depends.
RK: Ya.
TB: It depends on a lot of things. It depends on, you know, you've worked out there. You know what the crime scenes are. It depends on construction sites and highways and animals and all that stuff. But to be quite candid with you, there are a number, I'm sure, that ar quite well in place.RK: `Well, the most, the most recent ones probably are the `best `to start with in my mind, unless you have an objection -- the most recent cases.`TB: In Washington. RK: In Washington. TB: Ya.`RK: We have -- I've got all your traveling records. Of course, you probably know when you left too and came back, a couple· times, but as far as bodies go that we have found, ok, as late `as `August of `'74 · ' ·
TB: `Ummm ha.`RK: `Is what we have that possibly could be associated with you. And do you agree with that date?`TB: Agh, I think I know what you're talking about. Do I agree with that date? August of '74. Well, first of all, you're getting a little bit ahead of me here but I don't mind because I don't want to get picky with you about this although there's a lot of other stuff that I need to let you and Bill know about that's going on. But, let's just deal with that one, for example. I mean, I was talking.to one of my advisors not long ago and there were saying the information you can give that will exclude you at some time may be just as much important as cause,·you know, I'm linked with stuff that, that's not real.
RK: Right. I agree.
TB: And I'm mistaken -- not mistaken that August 1974 date refers to a yourtg woman out of the southwestern part of the state who disappeared and was found on the Pass somewhere, her remains. I may be. completely wrong on this.
RK: What I'm talking about -- both, there were two skeletons found together in Clark County. August 2nd was the date that one of the girls was last seen. ·
TB: Right. Ya, I remember. I'm familiar with that. I mean, I've heard of it.
RK: You've heard of it?
TB: Right. That's nothing to do with me.
RK: Right. 1, I had that feeling but they wanted me to ask anyway and at the time of your gas receipts, it shows you not going that way. ·
TB: Ahh ha.
RK: And you would have had to have gone down there during a certain time period to be eligible to have been the one who knows.
TB: ahh ha.
RK: Like, they have a good suspect in that case. There's definitely one that is marginal.
TB: Ahh ha,
RK: Technically, if you didn't use your gas card, you could be an eligible suspect._ _
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TB: Right. Ya. That's --
RK: You headed to Salt Lake and it was rather obvious route that you commonly take and so it wasn't one where you could deviate and I fool the police in Vancouver - then cutting back over.
TB: Well,
RK: There still was the fact there was a possibility.
TB: Well, sure. Ya. I obviously -- the gas card, the infamous
-- what was it? Standard Oil I believe. Ya, well, God bless them. The old paper trail. No, no, that's, that's nothing to do. with me, you know. So that's, that's a step. That was easy.
RK: I thought I'd start with the easy ones. This one will do. TB: Ok.
RK: The more difficult ones however, the ones I know the most about, are the two that are missing on July 14. However, that particular dump site was located in September of '74 has more than just those two . there.. And what I would kind of like to do is take it by -- go from one dump site location to another, rather than try and do it by victim is by sight. It seems to be more of an orientation and there's more evidence and more information that you might be able to give .me about who's there or what you can recall of them, trying to figure out what happened with whom. So, I would like to take it by site. Mainly, first was the Issaquah site cause that's the first one we found. And then the Taylor Mountain site is the second one we found. Do you agree with those two? ·
TB: Well, you're taking it in that order? RK:. Yes.
TB: Why not?
RK: Ya, ok.·TB: `You know, but sight, by chronology. All right. See, `I - `as this converstation evolves, I think you'll have a better idea of where I'm at and what I'm trying to do. Maybe you think you do.already. I will give you -- we can talk about. and will talk about today some of that.`RK: Ahh ha.
TB: Ok? Ahhh. There's, there's so much, you know. There's a lot going on there, obviously. A lot more that I would like to tell you than about dump sites.RK: Ahh `ha.`TB: You know. Ummm. But, that's certainly one place, and very
· obvious place to begin and I have no problem with that. But I want to know from -- right now, what I want to know from you is what are you going -- what are you going to do with this, assuming I tell you i_t? I mean, not assuming, but what would you do with this today or tomorrow? I tell you what I know about Issaquah. Ok. What do you do?
RK: What I do .is that, number 1, it gives me an idea of how credible and frank you're going to be up front to me.
TB: Ahh ha.
RK: O_k. 'Cause every law enforcement officer out there looks at`me for, you know, is Bundy bu_llshitting us or not? `. iTB: I hear you. I know.
RK: You know the guys that follow me in here are going to be asking me. And I would just like to be able to say, "hey, he was just and as right as anybody.
TB: I just don't- you know, here's my concern is that we not -
- I have no problem with you telling others about this. That's, that's probably part of the idea. But, what -- what I'm concerned is this stuff getting to the news media Bundy is telling everybody everything. At this point. I mean, today or tomorrow or Sunday. Too prematurely to start this ag in fueling the controversy which is already out of hand.
RK: I am not saying anything about this.
TB: Ok. All right. Well. Let's just do one here. I mean, let's start. Obviously we have to start somewhere. And I think it might, we might, as a long shot -- it's pretty long shot - that you might be able to get something out of it. At least some of that so called tangible evidence that might be of some value not only to you but to others. And maybe a bit of information, even if you don't find anything else, that might be of some value to families.
RK: Ahh ha.
TB: Ok. So we1 ll do -- I understand that at the Issaquah site -
- which I could describe to you, will desribe to you if you want, there were three, remains of three individuals found, two identified and one not, cause of the, the, so few, the kinds •Of remains that were found were so few and unidentifiable. Ok?
RK: Ahh ha.
TB: What do you want? Where this - RK: I'd like to know --
TB: Description of the site first? How to get there. you just don1 t, you just don't make this up. Right? ·
RK: I want to know what the site is.
I mean,
TB: Ya. Well, the old Highway 90, I understand which ip no longer there, I mean, not like it used to be. It 1 s a -- but at that time when you were coming up from Issaquah you went from a basically a freewayi you rose up out of Issaquah into the foothills and you rounded a bend and it turned into the old 90 off of the freeway. And about a mile and a half, two miles beyond that bend -- this is 20-year-old, 15-year-old stuff Bill, Bob, so be mindful or it. This is not divided highway at that time, so you could turn clear across the highway. You could make a left hand turn going East. You could turn clear across the highway on the risk of getting a ticket, I suppose, and go North across the highway and turn across unto any side road. So if you drove North, if I was to drive North up and going East on 90, about mile, let's say more or less up that stretch of road there's a, a kind of a, used to be, a -- is it called an access road? Not an access road. That's not the word I'm looking for. It's a side road, small dirt side road. You would turn left going East. You would enter the side road, go across the ravine or over a ravine that was between the side road and the highway, then turn, sort of go left again and go in back down toward Issaquah on the side road, pass underneath some, at the time, utility or power transmission lines were there -- creek, that was a creek down in the ravine between-90 and the side road, this little dirt side road. Maybe half a mile, quarter of a mile down this little side road if you turn, if you kept on following it all the way down it would join 90 again but if .YOU turned just about the time it reached 90 again you could -- there's another little dirt road that went up the hill, across some railroad tracks, wound up the side of the hill. Just on the other side of the railroad tracks about 20 yards up there's a little grassy area. And so, and you know, some scrub growth. Old alders and
what-have-you. A little path that ran parallel to the railroad tracks and then up into the woods, running sort of West. The dirt road went past this grassy area I just mentioned and went up the hill maybe, maybe it went up half a mile. It wort of meandered up the side of the hill, hilly area. Also in the area, maybe fifty yards to the E st, down into another ravine, was an old abandoned cabin. Ring a bell? Think. Well, so. Let's see.
RK: Where should we have.found the bbdies?
TB: Oh, well, lord knows where, but the little creatures up there did. The animals would have done. But 1 think -- well, let's, let me start with one.
RK: Ok.
TB: Let me start this way. The unidentified remains -- gee, this is where I'm a little bit -- the presence of the officers down here is a little bit unnerving. Some of it, some of this stuff I don't mind talking about because they wouldn't.know from Adam. But names, I can write it down. I can whisper it to you or whatever. I just don't want the police getting any kind of names at this point. Ya. Ya. And then I'll just write the name down for you. All right? Ok. Did you see that? This is -- the name that I just wrote down was Georgann Hawkins. Ummrn. Up that dirt road, beyond the grassy area. I'll try to trace it here on a piece of paper. How about that? That might help a little. I'm working from some pretty old memories. Well. Let's do it this way. Here's the grassy area. Here's the road coming up - this, trees. To the North, Northwest of this grassy area
-- Ok. Oh, ya, great. Let me try to orient myself here. Gees.<code>RK: The only reason we have this picture is there was a big suit over this property going on and they took this picture on March 20, <strong>'74. </strong></code>.TB: Ya.
RK: It's just overheads.
TB: Is it still relatively undisturbed?
RK: Yup. That's March - well, no. About right here the railroad track is gone and the freeway, right about where the railroad track is
TB: In their construction how1 did they disturb up the hillside much?
RK: Ya. Of course, there's some of that hillside left.TB: `Well, `I'm `trying to find. `I `mean, let me `try `to pinpoint here some -- it's a little bit harder, you know, not having seen it -- I think what I'm talking to you about is that -- well, it's hard to pinpoint it like `I `need to do. `I `could show you what `I `mean by that area, I think.`RK: Right in here?TB: `Ya. Now; up. road. Keep going.`10 yards.
God. You stop when I tell you Go up the Right about there, more or less, in and about
RK: Now, was that a ·flat area or was--?TB: No. `It's rocky, very hilly.`RK: Ok. Cause as you go up· into about this area, come up the hill, where you could drive a car and get off the road -- you remember where that was?
TB: I don't know cause I, I -- see, back to the grassy area. I
parked there and walked up.
RK: Parked there and walked up.TB: I `never -- `I `didn't drive. `So `you see, I don't know if you went up that far.`RK: Ya, I did.
TB: But if --
RK: Oh, ya, we were two miles --TB: Ok. `Well. In that location that r·just described, I don't know what it's like today, but you should find some more that, of`-- we can get into details as to why --
RK: Why that area?
TB: Ya. But here, this is where I get a little bit antsy, not about you but it's just being overheard. There's some of this stuff that gets pretty tough. I can write it down, whisper it.. I have no problem with that. rt 1 s just that I'm -- I have to draw the line somewhere. With being overheard. At this point.
RK: Why don1 t you pull this mike closer to your part, area and try that.
TB: Ya. Ok.
RK: cause it will pick you up ok.
TB: All right. Do you have a meter on his? Is a meter running on it?
RK: No.
TB: You can't tell where we are on the tape?
RK: Well, I can tell 'cause I can see. I can see where the·tape is.
TB: Ya. All right. Oh, ya. Let's try something else first. Ok?
RK: Ok, it's running now. That's what I'm saying. If you move that over closer to you, your --
TB: Ya. I will when I'm -- once --
RK: It doesn't matter whether you push it or not.
TB: But once I get my -- I've got to get my elbow up here to be able to write to you first. You could read any of this?
RK: Ummm.
TB: Well, if you can't, Dianna can, I think.
RK: What you might try is whispering it and, you know, I think the tape will pick .it up.
TB: To you? Through here.
RK: Ya. At the same time write it.
TB: Can you hear that?
RK: I can hear it, ya.
TB: Ok. I just wrote, I just said that the Hawkins girl's head was severed and taken up the road about twenty-five to fifty
yards and buried in a location about ten yards west of the road on a rocky hillside Did you hear that?
RK: Urom ha. Ya.
TB: Ugh?
RK: Where is the rest of her at? TB: Down.
RK: Down the area?
TB: Ya. Where the others were. RK: Ok. All right.
B: I give you that because -- I mean, we ta-- I felt that it might be worthwhile to start there because, one, that hadn't been discovered before.
RK: Right.
TB: Ok. That was more or less a question mark, agh, to a point. You know, we all know what the suspicions were, but basically - and so those people, the, you know, among other things, the family there might be able to -- I don't know if you still even have those separate, unidentified remains. But in any case, I think that was a good place to start.
RK: Ok. From that point, was there damage to those remains? What instrument did you use?
TB: Who?
RK: Hawkins.
TB: Ya. But not anything you would have found that I know of. If you'd found -- you'd have found it probably, probably you'd have found damage to the head.
RK: Right.
TB: The jaw in particular probably broken. But if you'd found that you'd have known who it was. But, anyway, I don't know - is there any reason you asked me tha question?'
RK: What I wondered -- agh, were similar things done to Ott and Naslund?
TB: We're getting a little bit ahead of ourselves but I will say this much. No. Well, wait a.minute. Now that's a good question. You know. Agh, not similar things. Not exactly. I don't want to beg the uestion, but it's different. Certainly not as extensive I would imagine, in those two instances as opposed to the Hawkins girl.
RK: Ok, what weapons did you use on the Hawkins girl? TB: [Writing]
RK: Ok.
TB: Ya. This is it. That and RK: Can you say that word to·me? TB: Yes.
RK: How was that done?
TB: Well, it -- we can go through it, step-by-step. so, a couple days later.
RK: Ok. Why don't we take Hawkins and go through it step by step.
TB: Ok Again, I wasn't specifically prepared to talk about this today, so I'm, I know I'm going to --
RK: Give me an idea.
TB: I'm just going to give you whatever comes to mind and I'm sure that, you know, it's not everything.
RK: We -- to figure out, you know, the elements of Hawkins, then we can get on to the others. I just want to hear, specifically, the events that happened with the Hawkins girl. The facts I have are basically what's in the newspaper.
TB: Ya.
RK: Missing from one location. Never found.TB: `Umm `ha.RK: T ll me about how she was taken, time and events, what were the circumstances at the time, how you got out there, what was the time period inbetween, events, incidents.
TB: Ok. Let me give it a moments reflection here. Ya. I'll talk real low to you. You can still hear me? Can you hear me Bill? You can't?
TB: Ok, ya, well, ya. I, ok. Ya. RK: Pull the recorder over a little.
TB: Ya. Trying -- I don't even -- I can't remember what day,. I can't remember what night of the week it was. Can you hear me Dianna? Thurs.day night I believe. I don't know. 11 to 12. Probably closer to 12 o'clock on a warm, Seattle, May night. I think it was clear. The weather had been fairly good. I was - at about midnight that day -- in the alleyway, behind, like, I may have my streets wrong here, but in an alleyway -- did you hear that?RK: `Ahhh `ha.TB: Behind, agh, this is near the sorority and fraternity houses that would have been 45th, 46th, 47, 47, somewhere in there, in back of the houses across the alley and across the other side of the block there was the Congregational Church I believe. And some . parking lots in back of the sorority and fraternity houses. I was moving up the alley, using a brief case and some crutches and the young woman walked down. I saw her round the North end of the block into the alley and stop for a moment and then keep on walking down the alley toward roe. And about half way down the block I encountered her and asked her to help roe carry the brief case, which she did and we walked back up the alley, across the street, turned right on sidewalk in front of, I think, the fraternity house on the corner there, rounded the corner to the left going North on 47th. Well, midway in the block there used to be a, you know, one of those parking lots they used to IDake out of burned down houses ih that area. The University would turn them into parking lots, instant parking lots. There was a parking lot there, dirt, dirt surface, no lights, and my car was parked there.RK: `Why don't you just stop that tape.`TB: we·were to the car. All right, a, basically when we reached the car, what happened was I knocked her unconscious with the crowbar.
RK: Where did you have that?
TB: By the car.
RK: outside?
TB: Outside, in back of the car.
RK: Did she see it?.
TB: No, and then, there were some handcuffs there, along with the crowbar.
RK: Along with what?TB: `Crowbar.`RK: Huh ha.T_B: `And `I `handcuffed `her `and put her in the driver's, `I `mean the passenger's side of the car and drove away.`RK: Was she alive or dead then?
TB: Oh, no. No, she was quite, not -- she was unconscious but she was very much alive.
RK: Huh ha. Ok. What happened n xt? TB: Well, wait a minute, hold it.
GUARD: Excuse me, just --
TB: Agh,· we drove, what with that? 50th, I believe, NE 50th or, you know, west, turn left. Went to the freeway. long time.RK: `Ahh ha.`<p style="text-align: right">
Drove down the alley to the street going east and 5, is it? It's been a
</p>
TB: Anyway, freeway. And then went south on the freeway to turn off on the floating bridge, the, that is, the old floating bridge, 90RK: Ahh ha.
TB: She was conscious at this time. I mean, she had regained consciousness at this time, basically. Well, there's a lot of incidental things that I'm just not getting into, you know, not talking about, cause they are just incidental anyway. Went across the bridge, across Mercer Island, East, past Issaquah up the hill, down the road and up to the grassy area.
RK: How did you get across I-90?
TB: When? You mean, off the
.RK: When you're driving Eastbound on I-90TB: `Right.`RK: There's a barricade in the middle of that road.
TB: Not then there wasn't. RK: Huh?
TB: Like I told you, you could turn, at that time, you could make a left-hand turn. Illegal as it may have been because of the double yellow line. I mean, you could -- I mean, hat was a crazy -- I mean, talk about craziness. I mean, if there had been a State Patrolman there he'd probably arrested me Right?
RK: Ahh ha.
TB: ut, you know, nevertheless, at that time there was no divider running do.wn the middle of that road, at that point. I didn't tell you -- I know. I mean, you're right. There would have been pretty dam hard to do it if there was. But all you had to do was just make an illegal left hand turn all the way across
-- well, the Westbound, the two Westbound lanes of 90 and right into that side road that ran parallel to 90,
RK: Ok. What happened after that?
TB: Well, parked, took her out of the van and took the handcuffsoff `her and -- .`RK: Took her out of what?
TB: Took her out of the car.
## RK: And you're driving what? TB: A Volkswagon.
RK: Ok. You said van
TB: Did I say? -Well, no I didn't -- I'm sorry if I, I didn't - it wasn't a--
RK: When you said something before that it was a van.
TB: Well, ok. Weil, it wasn't. It was a Volkswagon and agh, agh, took her out of the·car. I think I said I took the handcuffs off. Maybe that sounded like "van." Anyway. Agh. And, gee, this is probably the hardest part. I don't know, I don't know, we're talking sort of abstract, not abstractly
.before, but, weil, we're getting into some, we're getting right down to it. And I will talk about it. I hope you understand it's not something I find easy to talk about. And, after all this time. [Big sigh] One of the things that makes.it a little bit, well, one of the things that makes it difficult is that, at this point she was quite lucid, talking about things, about some
-- it's funny, it's not funny but it's odd the kinds of things people will say and under those circumstances. And she thought, she said that she thought that she had a Spanish test the next day and she thought that I had- taken her to help tutor me for her Spanish test. It's kind of odd. Odd thing to say. Anyway. [Sigh] The long and short of it, I mean, I'm, I'll, I'm going to try and make this, get there by degrees. The long and short of it was that I again knocked her unconscious and strangled her and drug her into, about ten yards into the small grove of trees that was there.
RK: What did you strangle her with? TB: Cord.
RK: Cord?
TB: An old, and old piece of, an old piece of rope. RK: This something you brought there with you?
TB: Ya.
RK: Ya.
TB: something that was in the car.
RK: Ok. Then what happened?
TB: Then I packed the car up. By this time it was almost dawn. It was just about dawn. The sun was coming up. And I went through my usuai, I say usual routine. · I went through this routine where I was just absolutely, I would go through this but on this particular morning I was just absolutely, again, just shocked, kind of scared to death, shocked, horrified about -- And I went down the road throwing everything that I'd had. The briefcase, out the window. Throwing the briefcase, the crutches, the rope, the clothes, just tossing them out the window. I just had, I guess was just, I was in a sheer state of panic. Just absolute horror, you know. It's like, at that point in time, consciousness of what has really happened. It's like you break out of a fever or something. I would, that is. Arid so, I would
-- I drove North on 90, East on 90, some point throwing articles out the window as I went, articles of clothing. Sha.es, etc.
RK: When did you remove those? TB: What?
RK: The shoes, clothing?
TB: Well, after we got out of the car, initially. RK: Ahh ha.
TB: Well, I skipped over some stuff there and ·we'll have to get back to it sometime, but I don't feel, I just, it's just too hard for me to talk about it right now.
RK: So, what that night?
Do you remember what clothes she was wearing
TB: Yup. Agh, a pair of white patten leather clogs, blue slacks, some kind of halter top of which she had a shirt tied in a knot.·
RK: Ok. And where were these deposited? TB: Along the roadside.
RK: Ahh ha.
TB: I mean, well, not right along 90. Agh, I went East to the infamous Taylor Mountain Road. What's,· what highway is that?RK: 18.TB: 18. Turn right. Went South again and at some point, south of Taylor Mountain a lot of that stuff went out of the car. Down the, down embankments and what have you.`RK: Embankments? TB: `Ya.RK: Did you have to pull_ out to do it or?
TB: No, ya. I would stop, pull over to the side of the road. At this time it was pretty light, and just tossed it out. Well, you see, I mean, I didn't -- there was sometimes I would do that and sometimes I wouldn't. It would -- at this point in time I was so frantic, so panicked, so whateve.r, about what had happened that I would just had to get every reminder of that incident out of the car as quick as possible. Didn't want to take it home, didn't want to be around. I was just --. RK: Do `you throw away some of your own stuff?`TB: Oh, sure. Ya. I threw away the briefcase. And the
.crutches and all that stuff. And the crowbar, everything. The handcuffs, everything. I'd get mad at myself a few weeks iater because I'd have to go out and buy another pair. I mean, it's not comical but that's what would h ppen.
RK: Ahh ha. Oh, now, just prior, now that you've had a while to think about Georgann Hawkins, is there something you can tell me about her that probably only you know and we know?TB: `Well,`RK: I mean, the Spanish test is pretty darn good if you ask me.TB: `That's what she said. Unless she was halucinating. She said everybody called her George. ·`
RK: `George?`TB: That's what she said. Or how about that she used a safety pin to pin, because.apparently her blue slacks were a bit too big.RK: Ahh `ha`TB: Or, that's about all I know.RK: Ok.TB: I mean, I suppose there's, you know, I'm sure there are bits a.nd pieces that will come back to me, but there wasn't a lot, obviously there wasn't a lot of converstation. But, that was -:.. that's what comes to mind..
RK: Ok. How about the other two sets of remains in that area? TB: Well, [long silence]
RK: Oh, one other thing.TB: Hmmm.RK: Oh, one other thing, about Georgann Hawkins. When did. that happen? ·
TB: When?
RK: Ya.
TB: Well, May of --`RK: I know when she disappeared on June 12th. TB: `Oh.RK: I know when but I want to know - TB: June?
RK: -- about this, the severing, when that?
TB: Oh, oh, oh, oh, that. Oh, excuse me. I was thinking of May. See. Agh, my memory. Oh, let's see. I'd say about three days la-ter.
RK: Three days later? TB: Just --`RK: Had you gone back there before that date in time? TB: `Ahh ha.
`RK: Ahh ha.`TB: The next day.
RK:· The next day. What did you do the next day?
TB: Just went back to check out the site, make sure nothing had been·left there. See, you know, the feeling is I reached the point·and half expected that she might not even be there. That somehow I hadn't even killed her. If you will.
RK: Ahh.
TB: So, ugh. So I went back -- Oh, ya. Removed things like the rope. I -- no, no. I had already done that. Can't remember if I found anything there or not. But I wanted to make sure. Oh, that's what it was. I -- talk about details coming back. I couldn't find one of the shoes, so I thought it was there. But it wasn't. So I went b ck. This is the next day. Got on my bicycle, rode back to that little parking lot. I knew there were police all over the place by that time, but I was kind of nervous
.because -- and I'll tell you why in a minute. Cause I'd left - and my car had been parked there so somebody may have.seen it. Now if something was found there it might connect me. So I went back to that parking lot and found both pierced, the pierced earring and the shoe laying in the parking lot at about 5:00 in the afternoon. So I surrupticiously gathered them up and rode off.
RK: After the police had checked that area?
TB: Well, you can tell me. I'd seen them, I'd seen whole streams of them driving around all over the place but there were concentrating on places like the park, nearby park. I don't know if -- I be you -- they couldn't have looked in that parking lot and missed the patten, white patten leather clog and the two white pierced earrings. Hoops. Little hoops.
RK: That was discovered by you the next day? TB: Ya. Around 5:00, 6:00.
RK: 6:00 in the afternoon?·
TB: Ya.
## RK: Ok. So you went back? Oh, excuse roe. When you -- after you left that scene that night --
TB: Ya.
RK: And went toward Taylor Mountain, did you go back to Taylor Mountain knowing what was there?
TB: No. No, I wasn't going back. I just drove, I just drove by there. •. That's all. It was on the highway.
RK: You drove by there.
TB: I didn't even slow down. RK: All right.
TB: Ya. That was really not on my mind at that time. RK: Ok. So, what happened in the next couple days?
TB: Well, again, the reason that I was so nervous, and this might be something you could plug into if that's what you want to do, or utilize, the reason I was so nervous about anything like that being found in that parking lot was that no more than two weeks before, that I had been doing, using the same modus operandi in the same neighborhood in the, in front now of the• same sorority house that Georgann Hawkins disappeared from. I encountered a girl going out the door and asked her to help me. Walked her all the way to that lot, 11:00 on a Friday night. And I was, I was drunk and I was just babbling on and I told· her I worked in Olympia, that I lived in a rooming house. I mean, I was just, I was horrified later on. But,
RK: Were you drunk when you got Hawkins?
TB: Yes, more or less, but yes. That was basically part of the MO at that time. Ya. But, I reached all the way to the car, and this happened, would happen sometimes, ·and just "no, I don't want to do· it. 11 I said, ''thank you. See you later." And she walked away. But after, after the Hawkins thing I was, you know, just paranoid as hell that this girl would say "you know, something weird happened to me a couple weeks ago. This guy came along with crutches and asked me to help him. He took me to a
Volkswagen and said he worked in Olympia and lived here in the University District." How many people could that apply to? so, there you are.
RK: Ok. How about getting back, to going back to that scene? TB: Again?
RK: Getting back to going back to that scene.
TB: Ok. Well, I went back the next day and I went back about three days later; to do that business that we talked about earlier and went up the roadway with it. It was sort of a crude attempt to disguise the identity or avoid, I mean, the identification of the remains as such. I don 1 t know. In retrospect it doesn't -- it sounds pretty incoherent, but that's what was motivating it at the time. And then maybe about a week to two weeks later I went back for a third time. Ya.
RK: What for?
TB: Again, just to see what was going on. You know, there's a lot of psychological stuff going on here that we just don't have time for. - I mecin, we could spend days xplaining it. I mean, there is a, there is a, there is an aspect here of, you know, the possessiveness Bill's talked about and I'm sure you're familiar with, you know, the after effects. This is why I'm so keen on the staking out of crime scenes 6f this type atterwards. Fascination with death, necrophilia, all that. But, of course, after -- you know, in June, after a week, it's, you know, what with all the local, the wildlife, that there's not much left.
RK: Were you going back to that scene to commit sex acts?
TB: Well, I don't want to talk about that right now. We will talk about it some day, but I don1 t have-, we don't not, really have enough to give you the background on that. I want us to work into that.
RK: Ok. All right. Now, did you actually put, always carry this little hacksaw with you?
TB: Oh, it was in the tool kit. I had a metal tool kit in the front of the -- the trunk, such as it is, in the Volkswagen. It had everything in there. I mean, you know, all the tools you need to repair Volkswagens.· Just like any tool kit, metric stuff.RK: Ahh ha.TB:. And in there was a hacksaw. And also a little shovel, little .army shovel.
RK: Did you ever bury anybody?##
TB: Oh, yes.Ya. I mean, in my -- ya.In my, you mightsay, my more coherent -- not coherent, that's -- when I was really going all out to -- and took my time. Ya. I did. I mean, it's quite clear. I mean, there's no question about -- almost without question, those who have been found were not and those who haven't been found were buried.
<table>
<tr>
<td><code>RK:</code>
Ahh ha.
TB:
<code>RK:</code>
It's that
<code>How many</code>
simple.·
<code>people do you figure ar</code>
<code> </code>
<code>buried in the state </code>6f
Washington?TB: A `couple. Just a couple. RK: Do you know who?`TB: Well, I remember the name of -- you know, I.can't remember names, most of the names I. don't remember. A couple, like the one we were just talking about, the name is -- it comes back to me. But, -- let me think. One, two -- that 1 s all. Two. Ya. I don't remember the name on this, on the other one. I included in the two Hawkins, only because it was a partial kind of thing. Plus one other.
RK: Who was the other one?`TB: I don't remember the name and `I `don't want to -- `I `mean, `youknow, I don't want .to guess.
RK: Is it one during that period of time, from say January through --TB: `This would have been in early '84, '74.`## RK: Early '74? A girl from Olympia? College girl?
TB: Oh, ya. That's right Y.a.
RK: Ya?TB: `Ya.`## RK: Where is she?
TB: Well, she's up in the mountains.
How about the Evergreen
RK: What mountains?
TB: Up in the Cascades, you know.
RK: And she's actually buried in the ground?
TB: Well, -- how did that work? This -- this is something that happened piece by piece, strange as this may sound. I'm trying to remember exactly where it all happened. That was -- that's something we're going to have to talk about in the future, but that was, I don't know that I was evermore incoherent and I -- I mean, that night is like some kind of dream, you know, very blurry area, nightmarish and, I have trouble piecing it together. But we will -- it's going to take me a while to work on that one.
RK: Ok.
TB: I'd had a- as I sometimes had a bottle of wine in the car and was just, among other things extremely drunk.
RK: Just so I can get an idea about timing as far as -- in that two hours or hour. Can we get some sort of feeling, if you can't remember names, as to maybe timing or events or something that will tell me -- give me an idea of how many people we need to talk about, locations, things like that so I can get an idea of the scope?.
TB: Ahh ha. Let's see. Ya. In Washington? RK: Right.
# TB: Ya.
RK: We've got the one from Oregon up there .too, but that's our case too·.
TB: Well, let's see. I think it's -- I think it'll be eleven. RK: Eleven altogether?
# TB: Ya.
RK: Ok. Ok. Which areas? Whibh jurisdicti ns or which disappearance sites or -- do you remember any names of anybody?
TB: Well, sure. I remember a lot of it. Sure.
RK: Well, give me an idea of which ones you're talking about.that, that I would like just to get some perspective on cause I'd like to get as much details on each one as I can.
TB: Ya. I can-
RK: I don't want to go for two hours and say, well, I have no idea what the scope is. Cause if anybody asks me what the scope is, somebody of importance, I'd like to know what it is.
TB: Ya. I don't blame you.
RK: I mean, you and I have talked for hours already and we can keep going counting the other hours and letters and everything. I mean, the scope _[end of tape).
RK: Ya, it's ok now. But what I need to know is if I have to fight for more time, I want to know if I have to fight or not. What I have to fight about. I know the details of things that are here, but maybe some other people don't have as much to talk about as I. do. I don't know. rt depends on what they have.. So I know about those eight. And your're talking about three others. How far back in time? You got '74, January '74 through July of '74. Are there more within that time frame that I don't know about in the state of Washington
TB: Ya Yes, there are. Let's -- I hear you Bob. What I'm trying to do is just to know, for my own self, what is a demonstration that I am serious about this. You have, you have legitimate need to know it all. And you want, of course, you want to start with that which is most obvious, that is, the identies and numbers, dates, and that's important. There 1 s a lot more important stuff. And I've never spoken to anybody about this and I, and it's, I think, for me, it was a, it's an important first confession of it 1 s kind, not that I 1 m asking, I'm not asking for a, any kind of public service awards but this, the reality is that that's, you know, that's what it was for me.
RK: I guess what I need then, I want to. eliminate any suggestions of rather than me throwing out stuff for you to say, you know, this is what we need to talk about or not, like the August 2nd, if there's only eleven, then that's fine. I don't want to do any guess work. I mean, I've got girls like in 1971 at WSU that's been murdered that I'm curious about. I've got two stewardesses.
TB: Ya, I can tell you -- I can tell you -- yi, we can do it that way if you'd like, too. And maybe in some ways that's easier. I can tell you what, that's you know, what I'm not30