Episode 5: The Riverman

Ted Bundy had competition -- and he hated that. Another, even more prolific serial killer, was taking sex workers off the streets near Seattle while Bundy stewed with envy inside prison. Bundy asked detectives if he could help catch “The Riverman.” Listen to Bundy accurately “profile” the elusive Green River Killer. This rare audio material is complimented with insight from a famous detective who interviewed both Bundy and the Riverman.

+ Read the episode transcript

Halsne narration: I’m investigative reporter Chris Halsne and this is Interview with Evil: Ted Bundy’s FBI Confessions.

Before we get started -- I want to share with you what is like to be in the presence of Ted Bundy -- arguably one of the most prolific serial killers in U.S. history. From about 1974 to 1978, Bundy murdered at least 30 young women across seven states.

Bundy (1989) “She was unconscious but very much alive.”

Narration: The story of this intimate encounter is from Dave Reichert -- a famous homicide detective from the Pacific Northwest. While I lived in Seattle from 1999 to 2014, I called him both “sheriff” and “Congressman.”

Dave Reichert (Former King County (WA) Sherriff, homicide detective & Congressman):

“The image I always speak about and can never get out of my mind is the one that -- as we walked into this interview room in Starke Prison, , he put his hand out to me to shake hands and, uh, I hesitated for a moment because the, the kind of the thought and the thing that flashed in front of me was, "How many, how many murders has he committed? How many lives has he taken with these hands?" And, I just remember that so vividly standing there about to shake his hand and when I did and looked into his eyes, it was my first time when I said to myself and this is, ‘"I'm looking into the face of pure evil."’

Narration: Bundy’s legion of fans has called him smart, handsome, and even “innocent” or falsely accused -- but “pure evil” are two words which could not more succinctly and effectively describe Bundy’s personality.

Bundy (1989): If I’m not mistaken, that August 74 date refers to a young woman who disappeared out of the Southwest part of the state and was found on the Pass somewhere?”

Narration: So far, this podcast serie s has been focused on rare recordings made only a few days before serial killer Ted Bundy was executed in January of 1989. After years of denial -- he finally admits to the kidnapping, rape, and mutilation of corpses.

Bundy: “I had a metal tool kit in the front of the, the trunk so as it is, in the Volkswagen and it had everything in there. All the tools you needed to repair a V. Metric stuff. And in there was a hacksaw. Also, a little shovel, an Army shovel.”

Narration: In my quest to obtain the FBI’s raw, unedited confessional cassette tapes -- I discovered additional recordings of Bundy not many people know exist. We’re going to analyze them over the next several episodes.

Dave Reichert: “This is a tape-recorded interview, uh, between, uh, Bob Keppel, Dave Reichert, and Ted Bundy. And the date is 11/17 of 84. The time is 1534 hours. And the interview is taking place in the Florida state prison. Mr. Bundy, do you have any objection to the...”

Bundy: No. No. I don't

Reichert: You aware this is being tape recorded? Yes.”

Narration: In late 1984, Bundy is sitting on death row while his legal team filed appeals. He was convicted of murdering two Chi Omega sorority sisters at Florida State University in 1978-- plus a 12-year-old girl named Kimberly Leach. He killed all of them within a few weeks of another.

While sitting in his cell -- Bundy was reading the Seattle newspapers -- full of articles about another active, elusive, and mysterious serial killer -- a guy snatching up and murdering prostitutes by the DOZENS.

Nat snd Media montage from Seattle “You’re a freak, huh? I said, what do you like to do? And he said (beeep). I’ll give you $400.”

Narration: Bundy nicknamed him ‘The Riverman.’ And he was not about to remain idol while another killer was taking all his limelight. Bundy actually reached out to detectives in King County. He started writing letters to the homicide task force offering to help profile the other killer.

Reichert: “He said, you know, ‘Don't ask me why I might have some insight into the thinking of the Riverman. Just know that I might be able to, to help you understand, um, the Riverman a little bit." Narration: Reichert, a member of that special unit, believes Bundy acted out of jealousy.

Reichert: “I saw a guy who wanted back into the limelight. I think that's the main reason, that he called and wanted to talk to us, is that he saw that Ridgway was, uh... Well, as he called him because we didn't know it was Ridgway then, he saw that the Riverman was getting a lot of press and that his body count was increasing rapidly and it could surpass him and therefore, it resulting him not being the most prolific, vicious, monstrous killer in the history of this country but that the Riverman might soon become that and have that title. So, I think that's the real reason why he wanted to talk to us, is to insert himself back into some sort of limelight so that he could get the media, that focus, back on him.”

Narration Halsne: I suppose I better tell you a little bit about the Green River Killer before proceeding on.

He started kidnapping and killing sex workers in the Seattle area in 1982 -- and wasn’t caught until just after Thanksgiving 2001. A truck painter from the Kenmore plant named Gary Leon Ridgway confessed eventually confessed to killing 49 young women -- but the true number is closer to 70.

After years working the case as a homicide detective, Reichert was sheriff when they finally nabbed Ridgeway.

Reichert: “People have asked me, "How did you, how did you make it through an investigation like that?" It- it's so brutal. so horrific. You- you think about ... uh, I would never wish this experience that I went through and the rest of my team went through on any detectives to collect bodies, sometimes up to five to seven bodies a week of little girls and young women in all states of decomposition is a gruesome, mind altering, experience. You can't erase those visions from your mind. They- they- they- they stay with you for your entire life. This case has changed me, affected my family, you know. And every detective that worked on this case who went through that for years. 19 years. Nine intense years. Image the pressure on the detectives -- Bundy’s too -- going to bed each night, thinking about how many people did he kill in the last one or two days. And what are we missing to stop this and going to bed every night thinking that somebody else’s life is going to be taken.”

Narration: One of those other detectives Reichert is talking about is a guy named Bob Keppel. Keppel lost a lot of sleep trying to catch both the Green River Killer and Ted Bundy. In fact, he chased those two serial killers his entire homicide career. Keppel witnessed things only in nightmares every single week. He oversaw crime scenes where detectives dug up the homemade graves of dozens of murdered young women and knew more Ted Bundy and Gary Ridgway than anybody. Bob’s health has prevented him from speaking for himself during this podcast.

Reichert: “I just am really so respectful of Bob and he effort that he put forth and the talents that man has as far as being this critical, tenacious, detailed investigator and so dedicated. It was an honor for me, Bob and I made a good team. He's more the precise interviewer, laying down exact facts and figures that he knew about. Bundy in some of the cases that he had worked on the in the '70s. And then I'm more of the personal connection. Sort of interviewer (laughs) trying to connect with and make him feel comfortable. Bob is the technician and I was sort of like, the one who, put my arm around him and tried to get a little bit close to him. But, you know, he's a crafty guy, Mr. Bundy.”

Narration: So, in November of 1984, Reichert and Keppel accepted Bundy’s invitation to help them catch the “Riverman.”

Nat sound from recordings at prison 1984 - cuffs being tightened.

Keppel question: “Do you have any speculation why he might be doing that?”

Bundy (84): “Well first of all he’s trying to dispose of the bodies where they won’t be found. This guy doesn’t want to get caught and neither does he want the bodies found. I think it’s clear that over time you can see -- appears -- he’s trying to improve the dump sites. Get better at disposing of bodies. We can all say. ‘Well. He’s really clumsy. I would have done it this way.’ But who knows with his mental apparatus? I think as far as the downtown Seattle -- there is obviously no place to dump them. It appears they died shortly after he picked them up.”

Narration: Another reminder goes here and an apology. These recordings were made on cassette tapes 35 years ago -- and I’m told stored for a while in a metal filing cabinet in the bullpen of the homicide unit in King County. Later they were moved to cardboard box in evidence storage, The quality is not the greatest but we’ve done what we can to boost the audio and clear things up.

Bundy: “I’m not saying he stopped, but something has changed around October of ’83. He may not have moved or may not have been struck by lightning.

Keppel: “Do you think he can stop?”

Bundy: “No. No. Unless he was born again (ha ha ha) and filled with the Holy Spirit. (ha ha ha). He’s either moved or dead or doing something very different. My conclusion is; there is no question in mind, he’s changed it up. Changed his victim class a little. Going to runaways instead of prostitutes specifically - broadened it a little bit and more careful of how he disposed of the bodies -- there’s no question it would explain the apparent drop off.”

Reichert: “He did look nervous at times to me. I could see his carotid artery pumping away. He wasn't quite as confident as people described him. But he was playing, playing a game. It was, you know, it was obvious. When we asked the questions that we were interested in getting answered like, "What do you think the Riverman, uh, might do? How did the Riverman start? What are some of the habits that the Riverman might have?" Uh, we soon discovered and, and expected this, when we went down there, that he, um, didn't disappoint us as far as talking in the third person.”

Halsne Narration: Armed with maps of dump sites where the Green River Killer had scattered remains, Keppel and Reichert sat with Bundy for 2 ½ days with two goals:

First of all -- Bundy hadn’t talked about his OWN crimes. So, they wanted to listen to his analysis of the Riverman which might give them new clues about unsolved murders related to Bundy.

Bundy (84): “Could he feel like he was in competition with the Task Force with you or Bob or somebody. Would he come out and play and torment you somehow? I’m sure there are some guys like that, but I would hesitate to try to stereotype serial killers generally. There are those who get off on that. A competition between this individual and the police. Whether he really gets off on that or if it’s sort of a benefit.”

Reichert: He's such an arrogant piece of work, was an arrogant piece of work (laughs) that we might be able to get some sort of clue as to what he did here in Washington State. We didn't expect to get a confession, but some words that might lead us to believe that he, um, might describe, might be describing some of his crimes up here in Washington State.”

Narration: Secondarily, Bundy really did understand how serial killers operated and got away with their crimes for extended periods of time. He was worth listening to.

Bundy (84): “This guy is bright enough -- not a wizard, but bright enough to know you can’t be approaching the same way every time. He knows, just like you know, those areas are under surveillance. He was going back there after the heat was on. I was amazed by this guys balls! After all the girls he snatched from Pacific Highway South, he disappeared on you. My guess is just blend in. He is so comfortable with these type women. My guess if you man is part of the subculture that these women find themselves in. There may not be specific set of characteristics that characterize the subculture of prostitution, but it involves drugs and runaways and -- certain kinds of people are comfortable with that kind of scene. He may have had an approach -- a ruse -- which applies to more than prostitutes. He’s not saying, ‘Hey baby! You want to go for a ride. Pay you 50 bucks’ - whatever the going rate is. If you have victims that are not prostitutes, it says he has a ruse that is more generalize. Not always coming on as a John. He’s offering them something else. See what I’m getting at (Hmm hmm) If you had a hitchhiker or a girl in a bar who looked like a prostitute, may not have been one. Appealed to this man one way or another.”

Narration: In the end, Bundy’s profile of Ridgeway was pretty accurate --

AS ACCURACTE ANYWAY AS THE FBI’S NEWLY FORMED - -- AND NOT YET FAMOUS-- BAND OF CRIMINAL PROFILERS. ONCE ALL THE FACTS CAME IN AFTER THE GREEN RIVER KILLER WAS CAPTURED IN 2001 -- REICERT LOOKED BACK AND NOTICED ALL THE DETAILS THE FBI GUESSED WRONG with their new mind-science.

Reichert: And so, yes, back in the early '80s, uh, the Behavioral Science Unit was fairly new, and we had John Douglas and his team out in, um... I want to say early; it was probably in the '83 to '84 era, and, uh, met with John and his team. They came up with a profile, pretty sketchy information back then. We were very frustrated because the profiles that we got were all slightly different and so, it was viewed back then as basically an investigative, uh, tool. And um, we (laughs) we sort of sidelined things. We had other psychologists take a look at all the things I just described. They came up with similar profiles. Uh, there were some differences. Most often in serial killers killing cases back in those days, uh, it was thought that the killer was very mobile, uh, wouldn't live in the area, um, wouldn't have a steady job, um, in the community, would be someone more like a truck driver or someone who worked on the railroad that was pretty transient and mobile. Well, of course, in Ridgway's case, um, he had a job that lasted 30 plus years in the same community. And- and uh, you know, one of the things that- that Ridgway did was he tried to communicate, as you asked earlier about communication, through a very cryptic note that you may have read about in- in the book. Um, and that note was sent to the FBI, and the FBI said, "No, this was not written by your killer." Later, um, during the interview, we discovered that yes indeed Ridgway had written the letter, described the letter before it was shown to him. And um, and then he explained ... 'cause as I said, it was cryptic, so he explained what he meant by some of the cryptic language that he, that he used.

Narration: But the scariest part of Bundy’s profile is that he and the Green River Killer had such similar methods that Bundy was not only guessing correctly about his nemesis -- but was also relaying clue about himself and his sadistic actions.

Reichert: As far as him describing what the Riverman would do with the bodies -- that’s exactly what Bundy was doing. And of course, when we later interviewed Ridgway, we discovered that Ridgway was doing the same things. In fact, Rid- Ridgway not only would have sex after he'd kill them, he'd go back more than once, but he also removed body parts, you know? Um, he removed the skull of one victim from Pacific Highway South, took her all the way down to Tigard, Oregon. He removed the skull of another victim. I- I know the names but I don't wanna use those. But, uh, skull of another victim he brought up from a very steep embankment and placed the skull, um, right next to a city limits sign, in Washington to say here's the, here's the body right here. Not only that, there were five other bodies at that location. So, I think Bundy played those kinds of games and Ridgway played those kinds of games.

Narration: Only a small percentage of serial killers are also necrophiliacs -- enjoy having sex with their dead victims. Yet both Bundy and Ridgeway shared that trait -- something Bundy correctly assessed during the 84 interviews.

Reichert: “In Bundy's case, go to the beach, pick up a victim, disappear, have sex, kill the victim. It's not about the sex. It's all about -- That's one thing consistent, I think, about all the profiles. It's about the power and it's about the hunt of the victim, and it's about the power over life and death. And then once you take their life, it's the thought of knowing you had the power to take that life, which, you know, you wiped off the face of the earth. And that's hard. Collecting body after body is, once you catch the person, you get into these interviews, it's hard for a normal ... I'll say, put quotes around normal (laughs) human being, right? If there is a normal ... to- to cope with and understand how a human being can be so callous as to just, um, take somebody off the street and your mission is to grab that person, kill that person, you know, have sex before and after death. And in Ridgway's case, on the way to work, picked up a victim, had sex with her, killed her, put her in the back of his truck, drove her to work in the back of his pickup truck with a canopy on it. Did four hours, went to work, punched out for lunch, got in the truck, drove to a dead-end street, had sex with the body. Came back to work, finished out his shift, uh, started to drive home, pulled off on a- a secluded road, had sex again with the dead body and then buried her, drove home, had dinner with his wife and son.”

Halsne narration: Whew. Intentional pause here. Let that sink in. Like Bundy, Gary Ridgeway had no issues with necrophilia. Actually -- Ridgeway had one limitation -- he told prosecutors he’d go kill another “fresh” girl when maggots got too bad on the prior victim. It’s hard to fathom these two degenerates lived in the same city.

Bundy (89): I’m not trying to convince you Bob to be interested in the why. I think a lot of people are. I am. People ask me why. Not law enforcement. Understand the people you’re after is sometimes -- that’s what you’re trying to do with the Green River guy. Am I a different creature. More articulate. I think I have the ability to say what was going on inside me more than other people.

Narration: I want to give you a couple really good examples of what Reichert is talking about when he says Bundy was talking in the third person during the 1984 interview. In essence, whenever Bundy talked about how the Riverman might think or act -- he was, in reality speaking about himself. Here is Bundy in 1984 talking about how the Riverman might get rid of evidence.

Bundy (84): “The second thing he might be doing is simply throwing the shit out the window of the car as he’s driving along. That’s one way to do it.”

Narration: Sound familiar? That’s what Bundy admitted to doing with Georgann Hawkins’ clothes after killing just before his execution. And here is Bundy again in 1984 guessing how the Riverman might be using “fire” to get rid of evidence.

Bundy (84): ”I guess there are any number of ways to dispose of the clothes. He could be burying it. Could be burning it at home. If he has a fireplace or burning barrel. Might not. My sense is he’s going to get rid of it. He doesn’t want much at all.”

Narration: That’s what Bundy was doing -- five years later admitting on death row to burning the skull of a victim inside his girlfriend’s fireplace.

Bundy: “Burned it all up. Down to the last ash.”

Narration: There are dozens of examples from the 1984 tapes where Bundy -- almost tauntingly -- transferred his very real criminal thoughts and behaviors onto the Riverman.

Bundy: “He observes them. Lives in their environment. Know how to move and work and where he can find them. He goes to a great deal of trouble to check out the places. He’s aware of you. Undercover. Whatever. He’s lived in that scene long enough. He can sense when they are coming. Generally speaking he see something he likes and parks the car.”

Narration: And it’s not like Reichert and Keppel didn’t know what he was doing -- but Bundy never slipped -- never completely gave himself away.

Reichert: “These individuals are so, um, smooth and, uh, unpredictable. Very misleading when you talk and very frustrating to interview because they, you can't get into the mind of a serial killer. There- there's absolutely no way. Bundy, I think there was an attempt there. Whether it was legitimately (laughs) for the purpose of helping us, of course we know that's not true. I think it's impossible to call it a science when you're main goal is just to interview and try to sorta try to understand their thinking. You can compile information and compare similarities to these minds with the answers that they give. And then also examine the differences and compare that data. But every serial killer is different. That's why I say I can tell you a lot about Ridgway and I can only speak to the, you know, my brief encounter with Bundy and some of the similarities between those two. But they're -- I don't think anybody can be an expert on serial killers.”

Narration: The biggest advantage of the earlier interview was that Bob Keppel -- with his lowkey demeanor and respect for Bundy’s opinions -- gained Bundy’s trust. And when Bundy knew he was down to the last days of his life -- it was Keppel he invited into the room for his true death-bed confessions.

Keppel Questions (89): “Okay. The Georgann Hawkins area is pretty much thoroughly searched. We went for miles all over -- We found a lot of bones but the only thing we have or had of her was bones -- two ? We ended up with five femur bones. That’s all we had.

Bundy (edited out of place for reference): “The Hawkins girl’s head was severed and taken up the road about 25 ot 50 yards in a location about 25 yards west of the road on a rocky hillside.”

Reichert: “It makes the hair on your arm (laughs) and your neck go up and you ju- you just go, how in the world can anybody be so twisted? How do they get this way?

Reichert is now working with the State Department and the University of North Texas on a DNA database project aimed at stopping human trafficking in Central America. It’s not a job for the faint of heart -- but it’s rewarding and important -- not unlike chasing Ted Bundy and working on the Green River Killer Task Force.

Halsne narration: I have to share something really cool that’s happening with these raw recordings. They will be embedded inside a new immersive true crime experience. A group of augmented reality designers are launching a new app called CrimeDoor this week -- featuring the Georgann Hawkins case.
Here’s how CrimeDoor works. Download the app from Google Play or the Apple App Store. Then you can literally walk into the kidnapping crime scene on your phone or iPad -- and not only look around in every direction but move through the scene, look inside the Bundy’s Volkswagen bug -- which is modified to help him hide a body.

You are right there with Bundy holding his deadly crowbar over one of his first young victims. Part of this experience is allowing you to review key pieces of evidence, like the handcuffs Bundy used to keep his victims from fighting back when if they woke up. Hear Bundy describing in vivid detail exactly how he lured Hawkins to his VW bug in that dark, dirt parking lot near the University of Washington.

These AR creators are profiling all sorts of unsolved murders -- to raise awareness, help law enforcement, and promote amateur detective-work -- Catching killers in cold case crimes is the ultimate goal -- no matter how many years the crimes have gone unsolved.

Download CrimeDoor today.

Halsne narration: Coming up in our next segment of Interview with Evil: A secret trove of Ted Bundy investigation recordings -- locked up for years until we asked to hear them.

Recording: “This is Dr. Green speaking. This is April 2nd, 1975. In my office I have Dave Sgt. who will be the subject of some hypnotic exploration.”

Danielle (King County Archive Director): “Our Bundy files are currently in our vault, which has more security because it requires a key. Once renovation – card readers coming. The security surrounding the Bundy files are no more or less than others. All staff has undergone background checks, fingerprints. Etc. because we deal with restricted records not avail to public.”

Narration: How a hypnotist, a pair of psychics, and Ted Bundy’s lives crossed in the frantic hunt to catch the serial killer.