Episode 6: The Archive

A secure vault, containing long-forgotten evidence related to the Ted Bundy case, is opened for Interview with Evil: detective audio notes, recordings of psychic observations, and a hypnosis session that reveals a witness to one of the most brazen crimes ever.

+ Read the episode transcript

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Narrative: I’m investigative reporter Chris Halsne -- and this is Interview with Evil: Ted Bundy’s FBI confessions.

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Narration Halsne: We begin this episode on July 14, 1974. It was a sunny, beautiful day at Sammamish State Park, a little piece of heaven east of Seattle about 15 miles, nestled at the foothills of the Cascade Mountains.

The beach was packed with a thousand people enjoying the lake and drinking beer at a major corporate function. This was also the time and place that serial killer Ted Bundy decided to make his mark on history -- take a piece of notoriety that nobody would ever forget.

Over four-hour period, he kidnapped two women -- not at the same -- rather stealing one away -- stashing her unconscious body in the woods -- then returning to take another. One victim was 23-yearold Janice Ott was a caseworker at a Youth Services Center who left a note with her roommate that she was going “sunbathing”

The other -- 18-year-old Denise Marie Naslund -- She wasn’t even alone -- she was at the park with her boyfriend and another couple. She went to the bathroom -- and never returned. Parts of their bodies were found several months later. During his 1989 death row confession -- Bundy admitted “in passing” to dismembering both women

Keppel: “Probably about 200 yards east of where you pointed out Georgann Hawkins and Ott and Naslund’s remains were found, that road goes back along the highway is where we found a little paperback book.”

Bundy: “You find a lot of strange things. That’d be something vicarious of sort. I used to go up there and just to entertain myself -- is amazing the things you find up there.” “It’s a very convenient dumping area and probably still is. I’ve gotta get back and get to sleep man.”

Keppel: “I’d like to ask one last question.

Narrative: Detective Bob Keppel -- at this time working as chief investigator for the Washington Attorney General asks Bundy if he tried to take a THIRD victim the same day. Bundy just laughed.

Keppel: “Janice Graham the first gal you approached at the park. She walked all the way to the car with you and decided not to go. She’s the only one who ever saw the VW.”

Bundy: “As you know there are a lot of light-colored Volkswagens. I don’t mean to burst your bubble. It is an interesting coincidence. You wouldn’t ever see me in Lake Sammamish State park with all that heat (laughs) -- That’s a lot of heat there. (laughs) That would be fairly memorable. I think almost certainly that could not be.”

Narration: Now back to 1974 -- As you can imagine -- in the days and months after the kidnappings, local police mounted a massive effort to discover the who could have committed such a brazen act. My quest to find out more about the police responded led me to a secret, truly undiscovered trove of audio recordings, pictures, and investigation files locked away inside the King County Washington Archives building.

nats key and opening door. Climate controlled (fan going)

Danielle Boucher: “This is currently our only climate-controlled space. Around 65 degrees or 40-42 percent humidity.”

Narration: Meet Danielle Boucher. She’s a researcher and chief archivist of all of King County’s historical files.

BOUCHER: “I consider myself a “historian” that’s what my master’s degree is in. that’s me love. Archives is sort of a natural outcropping of that. Within the field there is a debate. Historians or librarians better? I say historians – hah ha . A librarian would give you a different answer.”

Narration: The King County archive building is an unassuming single-story structure tucked up on Cherry Hill -- east of Seattle’s downtown.

Entering the secured reception area feels like you’re walking up to your local library help desk. The difference here is that there are a pair of huge steel doors along one set of walls -- the locked doors have the word ‘Vault’ painted on them in bold black letters. Inside is a surprisingly vast warehouse that stores millions of public records; leather-bound books of property records, Centuries-old maps and architectural drawings rolled up in stacks of tubes, and black and white photos of all the Bridges of King County. Danielle escorted our crew through the key-carded, security entrance -- and into a special room within a special room.
This is where all evidence related to the Ted Bundy case sits.

Danielle: “It’s our little corner of serial killer history. You can see these are just stacked in there – piled in the box. That’s part of the process to make it more accessible to researchers. The KC Sheriff’s Office brought the records to this office – redacted to a different standard. They were concerned with personal information social security numbers that kind of thing– but there were other categories – juvenile sexual assault victims, innocents, we are going under a project right now to rereview the entire collection in light of restrictions.”

Narration: Inside the Bundy box were thousands of items from the original investigation.

Sketchings of “fantasy” scenes involving men and women found by a man who repossessed a VW camp mobile Maps of body dump site in Issaquah Crime scene photos
There was a DMV list of all Volkswagens, WA, Models 1970-1974 and anyone registered as Ted, Ed, T, or E./ Bob Keppel’s original black notebook sits in the file. According to archive files -- In April of 1975, police had checked 900 vehicles -- 2,200 suspects. All but 50 were eliminated (50 PEOPLE WERE CAPABLE? SCARY)

Narration: To our surprise -- there was a box of audio recordings from the 1970’s which had not ever been dubbed off their original cassette tapes.

Danielle: “I have not listened to all of these. Screening. Not well described. Somebody has to listen to it. Tape dated. Restricted? If not, what do we need to do. Considering how much work has been done on this collection. Lots of text and photographs. Media is more raw as part of processing. I’ll listen to all soon.”

Narration: I submitted an open record act request right away and about a month later, Danielle sent us the audio files. They are rough to say the least, but several are worth listening to.

Nat sound: This is Dr. Gawain speaking. April 2 1975…

Narration: One audio file was of a police-recorded hypnosis session related to that fateful day at Lake Sammamish State Park.

Narration: -The audio file is labeled “Dr. Gary Gawain with Dave Sargent, Des Moines WA” -- Sargent was a witness at the park -- and had memories inside his head --buried, unrevealed about what and who he saw that day.

AUDIO FILE OF SESSION

Dr: “At any moment now I will as you Dave, stay deep sleep. Describe some things you saw that day.”
Dave S.: “I think he has blue jeans on and a striped shirt from right to left -- blue and white. (Can you see his arms at all?) I keep thinking he has a cast on. Not sure. He’s talking to two girls. They seem to just be walking around -- (Okay. You might watch him a while. See where they go) they are walking towards me-- One of the girls is about 5’7’ She has light brown hair. (Very good) She’s wearing blue jeans - brown shoes -- like the waffle stompers -- the guy is wearing boots? Talking away, like friends. (Are they walking towards you right now?) Yeah. There’s a little road up there with a lot of grass on it. They were just walking toward me. As I they were coming back. I still can’t tell if he has a cast on. I can’t remember. He might have. The shape of a VW comes to mind, but I can’t say for sure. Just the round shape of a VW comes to my mind but I couldn’t say for sure. Just the round shape of the top. (You can’t see the license plate though?) No I can’t. If I could get the car more fixed in my mind. Where it was. Kind of light cream color -- no. its light green or a camel color. Got some metallic flakes in it. Kind of looks like that.”

Dr: Did you see anyone approach that car that day?

Dave: I passed the car twice, I think. I didn’t see anybody near it.

Narration: There is nothing in the investigative file which declares Dave Sargent’s testimony under hypnosis as key evidence, but he is listed as a witness. Witness to what is the real question. In hindsight -- after years of investigative facts materialized, Sargent might have actually seen something significant.

For example, that description of the girl with brown hair matched Janice Ott to a “T.” Sargent struggled to be certain, but repeatedly mentioned he thought the man he noticed that day had a cast on his arm -- which Bundy admitted to wearing to the park that day. And finally -- the Volkswagan description isn’t one in which Sargent would likely just guess at. He said camel colored -- an oddly specific color -- and one that accurately describes the one Bundy routinely used to transport his victims.

Narration: All this prompted me to make some calls about the science of forensic hypnosis and how it might work. I tracked down two amazing experts who agreed to share more about the process.

First up is Dr. Shelley Stockwell-Nicholas / founder of the International Hypnosis Federation -- and author or 24 books on the subject.

Dr. Stockwell-Nicholas: “Hypnosis is a natural state of heightened state of awareness that you and everyone has gone in and out of throughout their life. They just didn’t call it hypnosis. For example, you’re driving a car and don’t remember how you got there? You’re in a natural trace state or daydreaming -- and if you’ve been love that’s the ultimate trance -- a lot of criminals go into a criem trance -- state where do awful things and sometimes they remember and sometimes they don’t remember.”

Narration: Dr. Stockwell-Nicholas says police don’t always embrace the science of hypnosis -- although it’s legal and court-admissible in all 50 states.

Dr: “Sometimes they get desperate, like all of us. They’ve gone through every possibility, seen what we can see. Don’t know where to go and hypnosis is one way to do it. It’s called refreshed memory. By refreshing memory of someone who saw something unusual, you might strike gold. It’s worth a shot. Sometimes the police have to be really creative.”

“A police detective has to be on high alert. Know if things are nonsense. He has to use their intuition as well. I don’t think they need be a true believer, but a lead they could pursue. One of the things detectives do is follow leads -- 10 or 100 phones calls -- this is another lead from the unconscious. Buried bus years ago? A witness could not remember the plate -- through hypnosis he remembered all but two digits.”

Narration: That “buried bus” crime she’s referring to is the 1976 Chowchilla, California kidnapping. Three kidnappers abducted a school bus driver and 26 children -- then hid the entire bunch by in a makeshift underground storage container. They wanted random money, but before they could get it, the group wriggled free and escaped. A professional hypnotist guided the bus driver to remember nearly all of the characters of a license plate driven by the perpetrators.

Nats of session “Feel free to walk around Dave..

Narration: As for using hypnosis on witnesses Dave Sergeant to help catch “Ted”? Dr. Stockwell-Nocholas thinks it had the potential to be a brilliant idea -- as long as it was done correctly.

Dr Stockwell: “He noticed something in a particular part of the park. I would hope he relived through memory and senses he clarified what fit and what seemed out of order. It’s a little like this. You’re at a party, you hear your name -- calls your attention. Some things are tuned into that -- the bizarre and what’s wrong with that moment.”

Halsne: “A good hypnosis session -- you’re poking but don’t want to guide?”

Dr Stockwell: “You cannot lead the witness. It’s not acceptable. You could lead them to a false memory and a false memory is a terrible thing to do.”

Narration: Genviev (Jen-vee ehv) St. Clair is a world-renown hypnotist originally from Monte Carlo and owns Forensic and Clinical Hypnosis based in Oregon. She’s spent her entire life uncovering buried memories.

Genviev St. Clair: “By the age of 15 years old I was already helping classmates with hypnosis to help them with blocks and obstacles. Always therapeutic. Never had any interest in show tricks. Reason I got into it because I had to survive unsurviable experiences from a very young age. When you’re cornered, you’ve probably heard of peritraumatic disassociation, where all your options are gone and harm. When you are no longer able to protect yourself your mind disassociates. You see than with chases in wildlife. When a predator is running after prey, the entire length of the chase the prey is engaged in the body, active in an attempt to save their life and once the predator jaws close in, you see the prey goes limp, loose, and comfortable. The prey is not dead but that state of disassociation where the mind splits from the body. The mind cannot process the terror.”

Narration: St. Clair, who worked on the high-profile O.J Simpson and Mendenz’ brothers homicide cases (Clarification as part of the prosectution support team - not involving forensic hyponisis), is not surprised detectives wanted to use forensic hypnosis to catch “Ted.” -- She does not see it as a desperate measure, rather good police work to help potential witnesses see what they cannot remember.

St Clair: “For basically when I do a criminal session, I try not to know anything about the case, just so I do not mistakenly have an opinion on my own. The more neutral the better. We bring people into that space. I try to have no contact with the person who undergoes the regression. No influence whatsoever. I bring them into the hypnotic depth. The state itself is known to be a state where the brain functions better. I will give you a few explanations on that. There is (edit of fact change) an increase *in endorphins and cortisone levels that corrupt our mind. The more stressed we are the less we can remember. That places us in an optimal condition to analyze complex situations. That immediately enhances clarity of mind and recall. People say I had no idea I remembered so clearly!”

NATS Hypnosis SESSION Dr G. and Dave S.

Do you want to talk up and down the parking lot and look for some VW’s?

Dave: I’ll start at Denny’s and look around the parking lot. I parked. And its parked It’s about 150 yards past for the policemen. If you walked over the opeing you could walk down a hill and almost at the car. Yah.

Halsne: St Clair told me entertainment hypnosis, the people who work the Vegas crowd, getting people to think they are chickens, are not representative of what she says is a well-respected, science-based profession -- one in which has helped police routinely engage crime witnesses.

St. Claire: “That profession in general -- It’s been the target of a lot of misperception, myths, and all of those labels and stigma for so long. When you really think about any profession, there are all good and bad. How do I personally help in that matter is: I constantly go over my criminal case files and write and publish them. I found that in recent years, the medical field is open to collaborative work. I find it moving how medical doctors are willing to work with us. Pain management. Have an open mind and study the data. It is clear. The brain functions better in that state.”

Dr G and Dave nats from session: “In June of ‘74 you had contact with a subject. Can you tell me about that?”

Narration: Using hypnosis was not the only unconventional investigative technique being used by homicide detectives -- desperate to identify their still unknown college girl serial killer.

Narration: Here’s Danielle Boucher again speaking with us during out trip to the King County archive building.

Danielle: “There are a couple sessions with psychics, we believe who were talking about suspects or victim location, that kind of thing.”

Halsne narration: There are multiple files inside the King County Bundy archives which detail the use of “mediums”, clairvoyants, numerologists and psychics.

Recording of psychic: “It shall be told and shall be of help to those in great need.”

Narration: The recordings are shallow sounding and you’re going to have to strain to hear this, but when I did? It sent chills up my spine.

Psychic: “Her hair was more or less how she fell. Must have swung because there is not much of it showing. And I feel there was a blow by a sharp instrument across the back of the head. Now I don’t say he broke the skin. Her hair probably would have interfered. Whatever happened to her afterwards I feel there was a blow across the nape of the neck. And she is in undergrowth in green vegetation, some grass, some greenery, some bushes. I’d say she was stuck where she is lying and not far from the park from where she was last seen. I can’t say how many yards or miles. If there has been a searching, they have missed this particular place.”

Narration: That’s right on the money. If you remember Bundy said he struck UW freshman Georgann Hawkins with a tire iron -- and that she was unconscious only for a short while.

Bundy: “the things that makes it difficult is that oh no she was very much alive --"

Psychic: “Of course, it is a sex maniac and a compulsive killer. And yet when this man is caught, he will have all most a religious mania of wealth. I’d say a sp lit personality. I also got the other night that there would be 11 girls all told.”

Narration: Hold on. Bundy -- 15 years later on death row thought long and hard and counted up the women he had killed in the Pacific Northwest alone -- and the number was??

Bundy: “I think it’d be 11. (11 in the Northwest) 11.”

Psychic: “I do not see him being caught and I think before too long he will probably move on to some other place but the 11 will be accounted for before he finally disappears. I hope they will catch him but if he takes off his cuffs and comes back in normal society nobody would attribute these things to this human.”

Narration: For some insight into the way psychics work -- I called on Phebe Delaney. She comes from generations of tarot card readers and dream readers.

Phebe: “What I teach people is: this is a visual tool to help unlock messages that you already basically know. My grandmother did medium stuff back in the turn of the century, 1890’s. It was called the spiritualist movement. She got her experience through something she wasn’t expecting but she talked about it her whole life and she handed the gift to me.”

Narration: As an investigative reporter in Denver, I met Phebe while working on my investigation into a missing mother from Crestone Colorado named Kristal Reisinger. If you want to hear more about that her case, I encourage you to download Up and Vanished: Season 2.

Narrative: Phebe says psychics -- good ones -- are not always right, but they very often use their intuition, visions, and readings to relay important and accurate information to police -- especially when there are missing victims of violence. Those victims often reach out from beyond the grave with messages.

Phoebe: “When I am working with the card, one of the things I have to tell people is: its not me that is giving you the information. I am merely the messenger. The information, I am channeling it. I know there are some weird os who call themselves channelers. They’d go into this voice and come out with a voice from some other creature? Most of those people have been uncovered as not the real deal. Real channeling is what authentic readers do. We allow the information to come through us and speak it. Believe me, I’ve told people - I know it’s not me because what I am telling people -- I would never have said that.”

In my experience, its like someone sends the people to me to get messages. They show up in the cards. The most common thing is when they die that they will get a message to someone left behind that they are okay or need help. You might hear a song. Might smell cigar smoke or perfume. I’ve seen billboards. If that doesn’t shake you boat, they come in a dream.

Narration: I also found another interesting, never before dubbed cassette tape inside that King County archives Bundy box. It’s l abeled “police notations.”

NATS FROM NEW AUDIO FILE “Investigative officer is Robert D Keppel..”

NARRATION: Yes. It’s overmodulated. But it appears to be a detective speaking into his recorder in real time -- while Bundy remained unknown and on the loose.

The recording is related to Linda Ann Healy’s disappearance. Officer on audio: “The only this that happened unusual in the neighborhood was a short time before she disappeared is that a man high on something was strangling a dog that barked at him.” NARATION: Healy was Bundy’s first known victim -- or at least the first one Bundy admitted to killing.

In January 1974, HEALY’S roommates reported her missing from their apartment -- finding bloody sheets and a bloody nightgown in her room. A year later, her skull was found at one of Bundy’s dump sites. Bundy lived only three blocks from Healey at the time of her disappearance.

Bundy IN 1989: “Is there any reason you asked me that question? We’re getting a little ahead of ourselves but I will say, No. Well. Wait wait a minute.”

In 1989, during the death row confessional session, detective Keppel tried to get Bundy to tell him more but Bundy held back -- indicating he was going to take some things to his grave.

Bundy: “What I would like people to understand is, if it’s justice they are after, they can get a lot more justice in a couple months than they can right now. I can help a lot more people in a couple of months than I can right now. They’re not going to do a thing for me other than give me a chance to tell a story, I am repeating myself but, I have nobody but myself to blame and I take full responsibility for it, I procrastinated. Believe me on many occasions prior today I asked people near me, long before this warrant was signed, and they steadfastly opposed it. All but demanded we stick with traditional legal approach. Last February when I virtually begged them to go this way, if we would have, we wouldn’t be in this situation. I understand, Bob, we are whistling against the wind. The politics are pretty heavy duty out there and folks have made up their minds -- I don’t know if this is going to work. If it doesn’t, everybody loses.”

If you want to hear raw, unredacted versions of Bundy’s FBI confessional recordings -- I have a couple of options for you:

Sign up for our Patreon account and get exclusive access to rare audio files, photos and other case file documents. Patreon had Interview with Evil blocked from searches for the past few weeks after labeling the content “adult only” but after a few appeals -- Patreon has unblocked our account so you can see and hear what we consider valuable news and public record.

And secondly -- and quite frankly a lot cooler way to listen to Bundy without interruption is to download a new augmented reality app called Crime Door. You’ll be able to immerse yourself into about 500 real crime scenes through AR technology. It allows you to enter a portal (door) into the very moment of iconic crimes such as JonBenet Ramsey’s tragic and mysterious death to Nicole Brown Simpson’s murder, -- and coming soon -- into Bundy’s kidnapping of University of Washington freshman Georgann Hawkins. Listen to Bundy’s voice as he describes how he plotted to take the girl, then kill and dismember her -- while watching the kidnapping scene unfold in accurate detail.

These AR creators want to raise awareness, help law enforcement, and promote amateur detective-work -- Catching killers in cold case crimes is the ultimate goal -- no matter how many years the crimes have gone unsolved.

Download CrimeDoor today.

Narration: Coming up in the next segment of Interview with Evil: Ted Bundy’s FBI Confessions,

We talk with former FBI profiler and author, Mary O-Toole about the secrets all serial killers keep.

Dr. O’Toole: “They practice. The practice victims are sloppy. Unrefined. Close to home. They are not proud of them. Then they become a serial killer and they get really really good at it.”

Narrate: And we investigate murders Ted Bundy’s said he didn’t commit -- including the unsolved case of a little girl who lived along the then teenage serial killer’s paper route.

Was he telling the truth?